Global Warming Advocates wonder why people do not believe them? - Page 15 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #141 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
It wasn't the Political Right. Last time I checked the Poster Boy for the topic of this thread is Al Gore. Last time I checked 99% of the environmental groups support and endorse Left Wing politicians. The more conservative citizens started screaming bloody murder when they saw what Kyoto was trying to do as well as other political takings in the name of "Saving the World" from ourselves.
Ye might want to check out the time stamps on the yammering of OK Senator Inhofe before jumping to the conclusion that Gore was the instigator of the politicizing of GCC.

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post #142 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:36 PM
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How many of those 4 Billion years had a load of 6.6Billion people and 150 years of the Industrial Revolution? Think those two items might have changed the formula just a touch?
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Originally Posted by A264172 View Post
This is the issue we should be concerned with.

Global warming is meaningless.

But traditional systems will fail.
Do you think those failures might just manifest themselves as accelerated warming trends, changing climate patterns and changes in the basic chemistry of the Earth?

Because THAT is what the entire debate has been about for the past 40 years.

In 1860, the START of the CIVIL WAR this Earth had 1 Billion people. In just 150 years we have moved up 660% in population and with the Industrial Revolution which started just about the same time we started a completely different utilization of natural resources. At some point Cause and Effect has to be addressed and accepted.

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post #143 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:44 PM
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Any discussion at all on the numbers? Is the assertion that if we discontinued our production of CO2, it would result in less than a % change in the concentration of this gas? If that were true, it would make the stated goals somewhat meaningless. (and, I really don't know)
I posted up something a while back [the BIG thread] that addressed use vs concentration%, tipping points and what changes help/hurt.

The problem is economic growth vs clean air vs balanced environment vs future projections. The question of whether there is a problem or not is really not on the board any longer [except for a very vocal small minority in the US which is almost completely politically driven].

When I get to my server at home I will try to find the name of the file. I don't have that on my laptop.

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post #144 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 11:08 PM
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I also must point out that the 'consensus' of the scientific community in the 13th Century thought the world was flat. Then in the 1600's, it was the consensus of the scientific community that the 'geocentric' belief of Earth as the center of the universe was believed without question. Wasn't it Galileo who challenged this belief and was threatened to be burned at the stake, instead to be forced to recant the teachings that the earth rotated around the sun and then was imprisoned the rest of his natural life???
This assertion is a fallacy on many levels. Due to 'poor communication' between centers of learning, consensus on any subject was virtually non existent. Without sufficient means of measurement, science in the modern sense was non existent. The notion that the majority of mankind thought the world to be flat is a modern myth. Any ancient observer watching a ship's mast approach from beyond the horizon would have personal empirical evidence to dismiss such a notion. The geocentric theory on the other hand was quite reasonable, because until the invention of the telescope, a casual observer would not be able distinguish between geocentricity or heliocentricity. By the time of Copernicus and Galileo the Vatican was well aware of the truth from their own observations and begged Galileo to maintain secrecy in order not to undermine the authority of their fairy story book, the bible.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #145 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 11:29 PM
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This assertion is a fallacy on many levels. Due to 'poor communication' between centers of learning, consensus on any subject was virtually non existent. Without sufficient means of measurement, science in the modern sense was non existent. The notion that the majority of mankind thought the world to be flat is a modern myth. Any ancient observer watching a ship's mast approach from beyond the horizon would have personal empirical evidence to dismiss such a notion. The geocentric theory on the other hand was quite reasonable, because until the invention of the telescope, a casual observer would not be able distinguish between geocentricity or heliocentricity. By the time of Copernicus and Galileo the Vatican was well aware of the truth from their own observations and begged Galileo to maintain secrecy in order not to undermine the authority of their fairy story book, the bible.
There is one similarity - Galileo was excommunicated, which was about as severe a punishment as a member of the social order of educated individuals could have meted out to them by the "authorities" of the time - the church. This was quite a severe punishment as it ensured Galileo would be without support from those who funded his efforts (being a scientist studying the motions of celestial bodies was not as in demand as, say, being a blacksmith at the time - Galileo and other scientists produced results that are of great value to mankind, but in the real time of his life, those discoveries had little actual value to the common man) and it was done as an example to bring other "scientists" in line with their farce.

A bit like the Bush Administration putting a political knob job in charge of editing out global warming data from NASA and other government agency scientific reports on the subject, followed by loss of grant money to the originators of such documents or scientists who pointed out the changes once the reports were issued. The use of coercion to force a "consensus" is hardly evidence of there being a true consensus or meeting of the minds.

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post #146 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 12:57 AM
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TNT..

you're no spring chicken. Is money that important?
How much money will it cost you if this "global change" intiative is implimented?

what is driving you to keep up this facade.
Do you have children? grand chidren?
Would you want to gamble on their well being?
Is it worth the effort to keep posting and posting, attempting to sway the minds of others?
Sit in a closed garage and run your car.
Multiply that times one million.
I think that might have some effect on our health, and probably the health of the Earth.
No answers expected.
Just think.

Last edited by theonlybiker111; 11-19-2008 at 01:02 AM.
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post #147 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 05:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by edfreeman View Post
Any discussion at all on the numbers? Is the assertion that if we discontinued our production of CO2, it would result in less than a % change in the concentration of this gas? If that were true, it would make the stated goals somewhat meaningless. (and, I really don't know)
See this is the problem. They do not wish to discuss the numbers. The reason being that they know the numbers do not support their position so they keep throwing out everything they can to misdirect people's attention.

It is simple actually no matter what they say.

Temperature begets CO2 increases.

We have little to no effect on the increase or decrease of CO2 in the atmosphere.

When they are willing to discuss these two simple facts without spreading "FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, THINK OF YOUR CHILDREN, YOU COLD HEARTED BASTARD" then maybe there can be a productive discussion.

The closest they have come is JimSmith saying 1 PPM reduction per year is significant enough to bankrupt the world's economy.

Who's John Galt.

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post #148 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 05:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theonlybiker111 View Post
TNT..

you're no spring chicken. Is money that important?
How much money will it cost you if this "global change" intiative is implimented?

what is driving you to keep up this facade.
Do you have children? grand chidren?
Would you want to gamble on their well being?
Is it worth the effort to keep posting and posting, attempting to sway the minds of others?
Sit in a closed garage and run your car.
Multiply that times one million.
I think that might have some effect on our health, and probably the health of the Earth.
No answers expected.
Just think.
First off answer the numbers I posted or dispute them. Trying to spread fear like this is disgusting. I bet you thought Obama was a Muslim too.

Secondly go look at this:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/kyoto/pdf/c6graph1.pdf

That is just the Kyoto treaty impact and the Kyoto target reductions.

Now put that against the fact that if we just stop 100% emission of CO2 we could POSSIBLY reduce the CO2 levels by a little more than .25% per year, that's if the WHOLE WORLD stopped emitting CO2.

Now balance that with the fact that we now know that CO2 does not cause a rise in temperature but a rise in temperature causes CO2 levels to rise.

So we are left with the other evidence that tells us that we are receiving greater exposure to the sun's radiation. Hmmm. Maybe that is why?

Crazy idea here but let's just say that this is a natural process that happens in cycles and all we can do is muck it up if we try to prevent the "Highs" from getting to high.

The evidence is quite clear. You just do not want to see it.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #149 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 07:50 AM
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I think T-Rex makes a valid point, here.


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post #150 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-19-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
See this is the problem. They do not wish to discuss the numbers. The reason being that they know the numbers do not support their position so they keep throwing out everything they can to misdirect people's attention.

It is simple actually no matter what they say.

Temperature begets CO2 increases.

We have little to no effect on the increase or decrease of CO2 in the atmosphere.

When they are willing to discuss these two simple facts without spreading "FEAR, FEAR, FEAR, THINK OF YOUR CHILDREN, YOU COLD HEARTED BASTARD" then maybe there can be a productive discussion.

The closest they have come is JimSmith saying 1 PPM reduction per year is significant enough to bankrupt the world's economy.
They do not want to discuss the numbers? You sound like a fool. This is the most thouroughly studied scientific question of the age. You thinks scientists are like AM talk radio shitheads?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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