Global Warming Advocates wonder why people do not believe them? - Page 14 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #131 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 04:13 PM
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TNT,
What we see is liberalism feeds on fear. Liberals depend on fear. Without fear, they would not exist. So what if none of their proposals work? To them, it's the thought that counts and if our kids can grow up without the fear that the polar ice caps will melt and drown them, then all the programs and restrictions put into place will be worth it, in the eyes of liberals, regardless of the half cocked reasoning for implementing them. What is the most fascinating to me is the fact they readily admit that they really don't know WTF is going on. The "But we must do something' mentality takes over so as to reassure the sheeple that all is being done by the great big benevolent government to ensure the safety of future generations. So, the gloom and doom fear machine keeps turning in order to justify the existence of these parasitic scientists and their half baked, unproven theories based in fear, only.
I believe any true conservative would find your attributing a genuine concern for conserving the functionality of the environment to liberals alone a gross injustice. Jim
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post #132 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 04:55 PM
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I believe any true conservative would find your attributing a genuine concern for conserving the functionality of the environment to liberals alone a gross injustice. Jim
Why do liberals feel they have to resort to fear, doomsaying or whatever else tactic they use to get someone to conform to their Big Brothernistic bullshit? I'm all about preserving the environment. I'm NOT for using bullshit to accomplish far reaching restrictions when it isn't proven that implementing these restrictions will have any effect at all on what no one can agree to what's going on, anyway? Hell, you can't even agree on WHAT 'IT'S' called, whatever 'IT' is or if 'IT' even exists.

Technology WILL change to other forms of energy. Market will demand it. Market already is demanding it. We don't need legislation to make it happen.

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post #133 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
I am sorry I don't normally read your posts ad they are pretty insipid. But this one at least bears some response.

I work for an Offshore Drilling Company.

Before that I spent 10 years in sales in the Plastics Molding industry while still in the active reserves where I spent time in many God forsaken places that I have already talked about here.

Before that I was a Marine and did Aviation Logistics.

I am assuming that by this question you are trying to infer that because I work in the Oil Industry that my opinion will not be a fair and honest one. I can see your point (but disagree with it) but if you say that then you can not say the FTL's opinions are true and honest either as he works for the Oil Industry as well.

Am I to understand then that a lawyer can not speak truthfully and honestly about tort reform either?
Patently you do read my posts, you respond to a lot of them.

I had asked you a question about your employer because yes, I was suggesting it may have a bearing on your position.

Does it mean that you cannot have an opinion which may appear to conflict with what pays your wage, not at all, it just does not appear to be the case in this instance.

Can lawyers question and oppose laws and even support tort reform, indeed and most law reform is driven by those in the legal field.

You initiated this debate with broad sweeping statements which suggest a closed minded attitude to the possibility that arguments have two sides - that is all I have been trying to point out.

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post #134 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Patently you do read my posts, you respond to a lot of them.

I had asked you a question about your employer because yes, I was suggesting it may have a bearing on your position.

Does it mean that you cannot have an opinion which may appear to conflict with what pays your wage, not at all, it just does not appear to be the case in this instance.

Can lawyers question and oppose laws and even support tort reform, indeed and most law reform is driven by those in the legal field.

You initiated this debate with broad sweeping statements which suggest a closed minded attitude to the possibility that arguments have two sides - that is all I have been trying to point out.
Actually I have never said that once. No argument has only two sides. I do tend to try and boil things down to their essence as much as possible. It make decision making a whole lot easier. I just happen to have a recent stake in the issue as I have a job in the industry as of 6 months ago. That by no means has changed my attitude towards this farce that is Man Made Global Warming.

I am not closed minded at all. In fact it is you that seem to be closed minded. Because I do not agree with you, and anyone else who does agree with you for that matter, is open to name calling and excoriation by you and your brethren liberals.

Why is it such a bad thing to ask for proof that we are doing something wrong if you say we are doing something wrong?

As for your point about me being in the Oil Industry it is a silly point and you as much as admitted to it, so thank you for that small glimpse of intellectual honesty. I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

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post #135 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
TnT,

Let's go back to my earlier suggestion and answer the questions one at a time. The first is, is there global climate change occurring that can be described as the troposphere energy density increasing? I presume from your many declarations that you think this is the case. Is it? Because if this is the case then studying it to learn what causes it, and then to figure out if there is some way for mankind to limit the detrimental effects of it, should those effects actually be detrimental, hardly seems inappropriate.

If you are ever entrusted to run a technically challenging project, I hope you do consider spending some of your budget examining issues that you know you are going to encounter during the project, as well as those you, or others think you may encounter. And then plan "work around" and alternate approaches (all plural, and not by accident).

The entire argument you make comes down to money. You don't want to spend it investigating the potential of global climate change, or the potential "work around's" or alternates ahead of time, should the problem become so apparent that even those who don't want to see it can no longer deny it is upon us.

The entire "innovation" and "high tech" business world was an offshoot of the space program. Another big government project that Microsoft alone has paid back to our government in taxes. Without the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo Projects (each with lots of work around's and alternate plans that were prepared, some implemented, and some not) it is likely that America might not have been investing in the basic research and then development of technologies that spawned the microprocessor.

No, TnT, you are motivated by your own all consuming greed and selfishness. You won't benefit so you want to "see the evidence yourself" and you will only accept cataclysmic conditions as evidence. Which may not happen in your lifetime even if we do nothing. The rest of your argument goes back and forth, but the fulcrum is your personal attachment to your dollars. Don't spend it investigating the problem and don't spend it investigating potential solutions.

So, back to the first question. Is global climate change, regardless of the cause, bringing us a higher energy density in the troposphere?

Keep the answer simple. Yes or no. We can go from there. Jim
Yes obviously there is an increase in energy as you put it. This energy is the absorption of radiation from both the sun and the earth's reflected radiation.

So no onto something in your post here that has piqued my interest.

Are you saying that "OK we may not actually have any real effect either positive or negative, but just think of the technology that will come from the spending initiatives."? Because that is what it sounds like when you talk about the space program.

As for not spending money on the potential of global climate change...

Let me ask you the following question. Would you spend money on trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

That is what this boils down to. Mother Nature is at work. The earth warms and it cools. This is the circle of life. The arrogance that is displayed by people who think they know better is astounding! This is the same thought process that has allowed our forests to turn into tinder boxes. We have preached fire prevention in our forests for so long that we now have the problem that we have not let mother nature take her course. If we had allowed the natural fires to happen, we wouldn't see the catastrophic conflagrations that we have been seeing in the past 20 years.

So yes, I am very reluctant to spend any more money, increase taxes, decrease production output, or whatever because someone somewhere thinks that this is the end of the world as we know it and they can save us if we only give them more grants to study the ice cores from 200,000 years ago for the 14th time.

The fact is the information is there. We are not doing anything that is significantly increasing the temperature of our beautiful planet.

Go sell your fear and hatred somewhere else.

Who's John Galt.

"Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes" - Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 2

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. --Benjamin Netayahu
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post #136 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Yes obviously there is an increase in energy as you put it. This energy is the absorption of radiation from both the sun and the earth's reflected radiation.

So no onto something in your post here that has piqued my interest.

Are you saying that "OK we may not actually have any real effect either positive or negative, but just think of the technology that will come from the spending initiatives."? Because that is what it sounds like when you talk about the space program.

As for not spending money on the potential of global climate change...

Let me ask you the following question. Would you spend money on trying to figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

That is what this boils down to. Mother Nature is at work. The earth warms and it cools. This is the circle of life. The arrogance that is displayed by people who think they know better is astounding! This is the same thought process that has allowed our forests to turn into tinder boxes. We have preached fire prevention in our forests for so long that we now have the problem that we have not let mother nature take her course. If we had allowed the natural fires to happen, we wouldn't see the catastrophic conflagrations that we have been seeing in the past 20 years.

So yes, I am very reluctant to spend any more money, increase taxes, decrease production output, or whatever because someone somewhere thinks that this is the end of the world as we know it and they can save us if we only give them more grants to study the ice cores from 200,000 years ago for the 14th time.

The fact is the information is there. We are not doing anything that is significantly increasing the temperature of our beautiful planet.

Go sell your fear and hatred somewhere else.
Given you don't have any interest in learning about the systems, all natural, including those that are used by mankind to increase our collective survival rate, that affect global climate change, I think your posting on the subject is of no value. It, in your opinion is God's doing, and hell, no money spent trying to thwart God's will is well spent.

I am glad we got to the bottom of this. Because no matter how many times you tried to say there was something in your argument, it is clear now it was always empty.

So, now I can, with good conscience, write your global climate change rants off as utter bullshit. Jim
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post #137 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 08:25 PM
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I am not closed minded at all. In fact it is you that seem to be closed minded. Because I do not agree with you, and anyone else who does agree with you for that matter, is open to name calling and excoriation by you and your brethren liberals.
I don't believe that I have stated what I believe on the subject, in any of my posts so I fail to see how you arrive at that position unless it is by your apparently usual method of assumption.

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Why is it such a bad thing to ask for proof that we are doing something wrong if you say we are doing something wrong?
Again, I have not stated my position, and I certainly do support the questioning of anything, particularly things which have vague or imaginary answers.

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post #138 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:14 PM
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Ok let's see what the controversey is about then.

Global Warming is the problem that everyone claims to be the issue not global cooling. Call it what you want but it boils down to the fact that everyone is concerned with the warming trend that has been continuously brought up.

Second, the discussion is about what we as humans are doing that is possibly causing this. If we are not causing this or we can not do anything to effect the trend either way then why have a discussion about it? That means there is a section of people that believe we can do something to effect it or that we are in fact causing it. Everything else stems from these two basic points so in fact it is rather simple.

As for the Urban Heat islands etc yes urban areas heat up more than other parts but we have seen an overall planet temperature increase of .75 Celsius. Yes there are warmer areas than others but that also means there are areas that have cooled.

The harm from acting on this slimmest of correlative trending "evidence" is financial. If we spend all the money that the various groups say we need to spend on more studies (huh? I thought we had this nailed down already), direct action by limiting CO2 emissions (stop driving, stop burning fossil fuels is all anyone can come up with) the results are devastating. And when you look at what the issues are and then who would not be held to the standard (India, China) then it kind of gives you pause. If this is such a huge hairy problem why isn't everyone reducing the output of CO2? Why are some countries exempt?

Follow the money people. This is a way for more people to get more money.

I am all for stimulating "Green" industries and products that use less energy. The ubiquitous CFL is a decent example. It costs more than a regular bulb but let's face it, it has proven itself to be much more cost efficient up front (if you look at what it costs to properly dispose of one those costs go *poof* though so just keep polluting the environment with mercury by throwing them in the kitchen dust bin).

All global warming boils down too is some pseudo science that is trying to predict the weather. Yes it is that simple. You can bring out all sorts of algorithms to make it complicated but all this is is weather forecasting on a bigger more complicated scale. And then we find out that the folks who are recording temps at best, have been making mistakes and at worst are actually making wrong numbers up on purpose.

So is it more scientific to be skeptical or to just drink the kool-aid?
I tend to leave the science to the thousands of PhDs who have been working on this for decades and have dealt with astronomical sized datasets from which to draw their conclusions.

A few years ago while I was doing a project at IBM's Watson Research Lab they were building a special computer simply to do sufficient computations for the modeling.

Understand that I am not trying to be condescending when I say that your sentence "All global warming boils down too is some pseudo science" is ludicrous and naive on so many levels that it negates everything else you say on the subject. I am sorry you don't understand the scope of the science and that you choose to believe that the work of thousands is somehow a conspiracy of global proportion for some money grab but you are simply dead wrong.

If you have kids, apologize to them now because they are going to be the ones that deal with the catastrophic ramifications of this silly waiting game that has been bought and paid for by the oil industry and the Bush Administration.

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post #139 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:24 PM
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That's IT! Ultimate in liberal modus operendi. If the name doesn't fit, change the name. What will it be next decade? Global Climate shift?

I also must point out that the 'consensus' of the scientific community in the 13th Century thought the world was flat. Then in the 1600's, it was the consensus of the scientific community that the 'geocentric' belief of Earth as the center of the universe was believed without question. Wasn't it Galileo who challenged this belief and was threatened to be burned at the stake, instead to be forced to recant the teachings that the earth rotated around the sun and then was imprisoned the rest of his natural life???

Anyone who believes anything other than the widely accepted consensus that we are experiencing man made global climate change gets shouted down and run out of town on an ass, instead of the horse they rode in on. THAT is what I have a real problem with. Circumstantial evidence to prove a theory that can't be proven, period.
Actually Global Climate Shift was used in the 1970s but Change apparently became the norm.

Good example in using the "flat" world example for consensus. And the earth as the center of the Universe. Both excellent examples. What both show is that, with scrutiny, and peer review [Columbus in at least one case] the consensus was moved.

Now, we really don't know what the true consensus was in the 13th century since the kids of the Christian world sorta disallowed conta opinion and published work during what is usually known as the Dark and Middle Ages 600-1500.

But what we do know is that when scientists have a preponderance of evidence, they tend to work with it, try to prove it wrong using the Scientific Method and continue on. It's what makes us smarter.

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post #140 of 250 (permalink) Old 11-18-2008, 09:25 PM
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Any discussion at all on the numbers? Is the assertion that if we discontinued our production of CO2, it would result in less than a % change in the concentration of this gas? If that were true, it would make the stated goals somewhat meaningless. (and, I really don't know)

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