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post #51 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 11:12 PM
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post #52 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-13-2008, 11:25 PM
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Fuck the Big 3.
.... That is is a lesson this country can learn.
Whatever you say.
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post #53 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 12:17 AM
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I wish someone would have told Wall Street to go fuck a duck.
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post #54 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 07:37 AM
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Many people did. It is a matter if they listened.

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post #55 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 09:59 AM
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Senate will take up $25 billion auto bill Monday

WASHINGTON – A bill to rescue the troubled auto industry with $25 billion in emergency loans inched forward Friday when Majority Leader Harry Reid said the Senate will begin debate Monday and hold a test vote two days later. Supporters scrambled for votes to break an expected filibuster.

They expect to need 12 to 15 GOP votes to attach the measure to a $6 billion bill the House passed in October that would extend jobless benefits. So far, however, they had only one firm commitment, from Sen. George Voinovich of Ohio, a state with several auto plants and manufacturers of auto supplies.

"Right now, I don't think there are the votes" for the auto rescue, Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., chairman of the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, said Thursday.

But Sen. Carl M. Levin, D-Mich., an architect of the carmaker aid, said he was "confident that there will be bipartisan support for legislation to support the U.S. auto industry."

Reid, D-Nev., rejected Dodd's suggestion to wait until next year when Democrats will have bigger majorities in the House and Senate as well as Barack Obama in the White House.

But Jim Manley, Reid's spokesman, noted Thursday night that nothing can be done without the agreement of Senate Republicans.

The bill would carve out part of the $700 billion Wall Street bailout for loans to the three major U.S. auto companies. The measure would provide for the government to hold some kind of ownership stake in the companies for the duration of the loan to ensure that taxpayers shared in any gain and would ultimately be reimbursed.

Citing an economic downturn that has choked off sales and frozen credit, General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC are lobbying feverishly for Congress to approve the aid,

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky — home to General Motors and Ford plants — has been noncommittal about new aid. His office says Congress should instead revise a $25 billion loan program it approved last month to speed the release of the money, which is designed to help automakers develop more fuel-efficient vehicles. This idea is endorsed by the White House and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.

With feelings still raw from the election and the public dismayed by the Wall Street rescue, the auto proposal remains a tough sell. Some Senate Republicans are skeptical the aid would lead to changes by the companies that could make them viable in the long run. But several states with Republican senators have Detroit Three auto factories.

"Spending billions of additional federal tax dollars with no promises to reform the root causes crippling automakers' competitiveness around the world is neither fair to taxpayers nor sound fiscal policy," House Republican Leader John Boehner of Ohio, said in announcing his opposition to the measure.

Supporters of the auto bailout are targeting lawmakers who represent states with auto plants and auto suppliers, as well as Republicans in states with high unemployment rates.

Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri, R-Mo., left open the possibility that he could be persuaded to back a carmaker rescue. "While I have real concerns with another taxpayer funded bailout, there are also thousands of workers in Missouri whose jobs are on the line so the devil will be in the details," Bond said in a statement.

Democrats would have no problem passing the bill in the House, where they have a much larger majority than the narrow 50-49 one they will have in the Senate once President-elect Barack Obama resigns on Monday. But Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., has been reluctant to convene a formal session until she is sure the measure will pass the Senate.

Lawmakers in both houses will be in Washington next week to reorganize their leadership teams and committee assignments for the 111th Congress that will convene on Jan. 3.

The bill Democrats are writing would insert the government squarely into the car companies' operations. It would require that the companies submit a plan for long-term viability in exchange for the loans, share a portion of future profits with the government and reimburse taxpayers before any other shareholder, according to aides familiar with it.

"We certainly want to make sure that there's a plan how are you going to get out of this mess," said Sen. Charles E. Schumer, D-N.Y.

The car companies also would face tougher restrictions on pay for their executives and dividends for their shareholders than did the financial companies that got a piece of the original bailout.

Senate will take up $25 billion auto bill Monday - Yahoo! News
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post #56 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 12:06 PM
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This whole fucking bailout stinks.

Essentially, the Big 3 and the Government make the entire country pay for one of their cars, except in this case, we pay for something we never take delivery of.

I am calling every Senator and bitch at them.

If this bill goes through, I think every tax paying citizen should have a car of their choice deliver to their driveway.

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post #57 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 12:16 PM
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The Bailout's Fault Lines

WASHINGTON -- Finally, the outlines of a coherent debate on the federal bailout. This comes as welcome relief from a campaign season that gave us the House Republicans' know-nothing rejectionism, John McCain's mindless railing against "greed and corruption" and Barack Obama's detached enunciation of vacuous bailout "principles" that allowed him to be all things to all people.

Now clarity is emerging. The fault line is the auto industry bailout. The Democrats are pushing hard for it. The White House is resisting.

Underlying the policy differences is a philosophical divide. The Bush administration sees the $700 billion rescue as an emergency measure to save the financial sector on the grounds that finance is a utility. No government would let the electric companies go under and leave the country without power. By the same token, government must save the financial sector lest credit dry up and strangle the rest of the economy.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson is willing to stretch the meaning of "bank" by extending protection to such entities as American Express. But fundamentally, he sees government as saving institutions that deal in money, not other stuff.

Democrats have a larger canvas, with government intervening in other sectors of the economy to prevent the cascade effect of mass unemployment leading to more mortgage defaults and business failures (as consumer spending plummets), in turn dragging down more businesses and financial institutions, producing more unemployment, etc. -- the death spiral of the 1930s.

Bush is trying to move the LIBOR or the TED spread, which measure credit flows. The Democrats' index is the unemployment rate.

With almost 5 million workers supported by the auto industry, Democrats are pressing for a federal rescue. But the problems are obvious.

First, the arbitrariness. Where do you stop? Once you've gone beyond the financial sector, every struggling industry will make a claim on the federal treasury. What are the grounds for saying yes or no?

The criteria will inevitably be arbitrary and political. The money will flow preferentially to industries with lines to Capitol Hill and the White House. To the companies heavily concentrated in the districts of committee chairmen. To clout. Is this not precisely the kind of lobby-driven policymaking that Obama ran against?

Second is the sheer inefficiency. Saving Detroit means saving it from bankruptcy. As we have seen with the airlines, bankruptcy can allow operations to continue while helping shed fatally unsupportable obligations. For Detroit, this means release from ruinous wage deals with their astronomical benefits (the hourly cost of a Big Three worker: $73; of an American worker for Toyota: $48), massive pension obligations, and unworkable work rules such as "job banks," a euphemism for paying vast numbers of employees not to work

The point of the Democratic bailout is to protect the unions by preventing this kind of restructuring. Which will guarantee the continued failure of these companies, but now they will burn tens of billions of taxpayer dollars. It's the ultimate in lemon socialism.

Democrats are suggesting, however, an even more ambitious reason to nationalize. Once the government owns Detroit, it can remake it. The euphemism here is "retool" Detroit to make cars for the coming green economy.

Liberals have always wanted the auto companies to produce the kind of cars they insist everyone should drive: small, light, green and cute. Now they will have the power to do it.

In World War II, government had the auto companies turning out tanks. Now they would be made to turn out hybrids. The difference is that, in the middle of a world war, tanks have a buyer. Will hybrids? One of the reasons Detroit is in such difficulty is that consumers have been resisting the smaller, less powerful, less safe cars forced on the industry by fuel-efficiency mandates. Now Detroit would be forced to make even more of them.

If you think we have economic troubles today, consider the effects of nationalizing an industry of this size, but now run by bureaucrats issuing production quotas to fit five-year plans to meet politically mandated fuel-efficiency standards -- to lift us to the sunny uplands of the coming green utopia.

Republican minimalism -- saving the credit-issuing utilities -- certainly risks not doing enough. But the Democratic drift toward massive industrial policy threatens to grow into the guaranteed inefficiencies of command-economy maximalism.

In this crisis, we agree to suspend the invisible hand of Adam Smith -- but not in order to be crushed by the heavy hand of government.

Charles Krauthammer : The Bailout's Fault Lines - Townhall.com

Don't believe everything you think
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post #58 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 12:41 PM
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^more conspiracy, more we didn't get our way crap, more throwing shit on the wall until something bloody well sticks.
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post #59 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by elau View Post
Bear,
I can see the devastation when those auto plants close. If what you post is really that doom and gloom for those Metro areas, then the aid money should go directly to the citizens of those affected area. Free education for those who want it so they can re-tool themselves and find another line of work. Free health insurance till they find another job. Free electricities and heating oil to weather throught the Northern winter. That's what I am willing to spend my tax dollars on.


Further studies of mine told me over 40% of the ancillary parts companies in the Detroit region buy their parts from overseas anyways, and 1/3 of the electrical parts for the cars are imported from overseas. So there hardly any "manufacturing" to speak of in that region. If the Big 3 goes south, the most people affected will be mostly the direct employees and that number hardly reach the number you cited.
Do you have a reference for this? I ask because ALL cars have to post the % of foreign parts and I have not seen these kind of numbers on American built cars. Even Toyota uses nearly 80% local product.

In Dayton, as an example there are 240 ancillary suppliers to the Moraine plant according to the Dayton Chamber of Commerce.

I don't know where you get your numbers but when a town loses a major factory like Moraine, and the secondary suppliers that follow, the tertiary companies that follow [grocery stores, department stores, convenience marts, hobby shops, etc] multiplies the damage greatly. The cascade of damage from ANY factory closing has dramatic effect, when it is the largest employer in an area, and is a major manufacturer, it is much more catastrophic.

Here is a DIRECT IMPACT study from CAR which gets its funding from NHTSA. This only skims Secondary and does not touch Tertiary businesses.

http://www.cargroup.org/documents/FI...act_3__002.pdf

You suggest these folks retrain. It is a great idea. It works very well but the problem is that there is no other manufacturing base to absorb these "retrained" employees. At this point in time we have minimum new technology that requires manufacturing skills for which to retrain.

The New Technology for Energy, which is the one possible saving grace is also going to require a tremendous financial investment by the US Government as much investment capital has dried up.

The suggestion earlier that the other manufacturers [toyota, nissan, honda] will pick these folks up is not likely. They are also going through a downturn as the economy compresses.

So the question becomes, IF you bail out the auto manufacturing sector, are you doing so for the "big wigs" which only make up about 1% of the total number of people involved in any bailout or are you doing if for the 99% of the employees that would be out of work and the communities that would crash should the sector fail?

It's a big question.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #60 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-14-2008, 02:39 PM
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Do you have a reference for this? I ask because ALL cars have to post the % of foreign parts and I have not seen these kind of numbers on American built cars. Even Toyota uses nearly 80% local product.
My reference is not parts per car, but overall imported products used in those cars. True, if each car is broken down by pieces, it will no doubt show a low percentage of foreign parts. Another way the industry putting a veil over the actual country of origin for those parts. Another way to hide their outsourcing efforts.

Quote:
I don't know where you get your numbers but when a town loses a major factory like Moraine, and the secondary suppliers that follow, the tertiary companies that follow [grocery stores, department stores, convenience marts, hobby shops, etc] multiplies the damage greatly. The cascade of damage from ANY factory closing has dramatic effect, when it is the largest employer in an area, and is a major manufacturer, it is much more catastrophic.
Bear, I never said this is going to be easy, or painless for that matter.

Base on your statement, any business that closes the door will have negative impact to all ancillary businesses. Regardless if it is a factory, or a chain of furniture stores. So why not bail out our retail industry? Our national chain of restaurants? The list goes on. Where does it end since all industries are eventually a six degree of seperation?

Quote:
You suggest these folks retrain. It is a great idea. It works very well but the problem is that there is no other manufacturing base to absorb these "retrained" employees. At this point in time we have minimum new technology that requires manufacturing skills for which to retrain.

The New Technology for Energy, which is the one possible saving grace is also going to require a tremendous financial investment by the US Government as much investment capital has dried up.
The auto industry will not survive even after the bail out, only prolonging the agonies and inevitable. The sooner we pour money in helping those folks to get out of that industry, the better. Do I have a fool proof solution? Hell no!! Nor do anyone else; including you. Your bail out is a band aid approach on a decapitation.

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The suggestion earlier that the other manufacturers [toyota, nissan, honda] will pick these folks up is not likely. They are also going through a downturn as the economy compresses.
You bloody answer your own fear. So tell me, if the ENTIRE industry is compressing, what exactly the bail out will do?

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So the question becomes, IF you bail out the auto manufacturing sector, are you doing so for the "big wigs" which only make up about 1% of the total number of people involved in any bailout or are you doing if for the 99% of the employees that would be out of work and the communities that would crash should the sector fail?
It is the big wigs responsibilities to run a profitable organization, thats what their multi-million dollars golden parachute is for. Do you honestly think 99% of the employees are not to be blamed for the demise of the industry? I raised the question, where was their personal responsibility? 99% of the employees turned a blind eye to the crap they roll off the assembly lines. 99% of the employees had the last 30 years to turn that ship around. 99% of the employees could have outspoken the 1% of management. 99% of those employees decided to go with the flow, as long as their pay checks keep coming. 99% of those employees allow the UAW to run their lives. 99% of those employees never thought it will come a day their iron rice bowl will be broken. 99% of those employees come from generations of auto workers. Much like the miners families. They don't know what else to do, and now its time for them to redefine their future. Away from the a dying industry.

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It's a big question.
I can't agree more.

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