US Auto Manufactures Bailout - Page 22 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #211 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:50 AM
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on the transportation issue to washington...
they could have taken a chevy cobalt and got stuck 50 miles out of Detroit
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post #212 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Jakarta Expat View Post
Maybe the Big 3 should try helping themselves first, oh that's right they did when EACH of THEM flew over on a corporate jet at an appx. cost 20,000 USD when a economy ticket would have cost less than 300 USD and a 1st class ticket would have cost less than 900 USD.

So they flew private jets instead of taking public transport to come and beg for public tax payer money? Maine, you may need to re-think........
It was truly dumbassed for them to fly in separate jets but with the associated assistants, lawyers, aids, it was not simply three guys on three jets. There would have been at least 12-15 per G4. I would have recommended that they lease a single Northwest 737 and all go together. It would have sent a much better signal.

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post #213 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 12:46 PM
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I would think from your quote that you just might be in management somewhere. You refer to the hourly wages of GM employees who are the front line workers in the heat and the dirt of a lot of the manufacturing process, but nothing of the exhorbent salaries and expense accounts of the CEO's and lower management. I just yesterday watched as these CEO go before Congress to state their cases and how much they need a hand or bailout, yet they arrived in corporate jets that cost on avarage $22,000 per use when the same commercial flight was as low as $250 for coach and $850 for 1st class, I am sure the manufacturer could arrange a rental for them at the airport. Multiply this time several CEO's and several times a month and what do you have, a lot of waste, oh did I mention bonus's, or golden parachutes for these guys. Lets not pick on the foot soldier that puts his hand to the labor involved here. $70 per hour is roughly $140,000 per year before taxes, while I can agree this is more than most blue collar jobs pay, it is not out of line for what some of the mis-management experts we have running these large companies are making. Also keep in mind that when things go bad, these folks do not get the golden parachute or any type of bail-out protection bonus, they get a pink slip and go home. Thats it. I see two nice benz's in your picture, just what do you do to afford such nice rides?
the manufacturing costs that were quoted are just incorrect. Look back at Post #32 and let the Site Manager of Toyota Georgetown explain that his costs are as high [or in some cases higher] than that of UAW union shops. Also, the $70 figure is for those who have been on the line for three decades or more and accounts for their wages and benefits packages, not just their wage package.

You are correct that Upper management is trying to push much of the blame to unions, which is only a slice of the problem. Much of the problem lies in decision making which the union worker has zero to do with. It is why, if this bailout goes through, a very short leash needs to be implemented.

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post #214 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 12:53 PM
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Unless they change their business practice, they don't get any sympathy from me. Why can't they keep the manufacturing job right here? How much of the $25B is going to end up paying for this? I honestly don't see the Big 3 has any care of the workers here in the U.S.

New Russian plant will build Chevy Cruze - Vindy.com News - Local & Regional News, News Watch - Youngstown, Warren, Columbiana, Ohio
That particular car is going to be used in both US and Euro markets. It makes very good cost sense to have manufacturing in both locations.

Now to the root of the point, if we are going to look at money for supporting the US market and jobs end up going offshore, that is incorrect but the two proposals that I have read seem to support strong efforts to insure that jobs stay at US plants.

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post #215 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 05:56 PM
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Agree with digmenow.

Keep focusing on the jets and other bs, while the real culprit is the very poor decision making they have exhibited.

If they had made all the right moves, they still would have lost money in the 3rd quarter because even toyota and honda lost money, and they are the premier auto makers in the world.

The issue at hand is they kept making stupid high profit SUVs, rather than making alternative vehicles available.

Look at the options you have if you want something larger than a car. You can get a mid sized car that gets 22mpg, or you can get an SUV that has a large amount of space that gets 18mpg.

The difference is nothing!!!

That is their issue. They now cannot compete with the Honda and Toyota that saw this coming and had vehicles in place and reliable.

And once again, GM is selling these cars in Europe that run on gas and diesel that do far better in mpg.
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post #216 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 05:58 PM
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Need a plan! yes, they do!

EDIT: I wonder if AIG, and the banks needed a plan for the 850B?

Quote:
Dems delay auto bailout vote, seek plan from Big 3
Thursday November 20, 7:52 pm ET
By Ken Thomas and Julie Hirschfeld Davis, Associated Press Writers
Congressional Democrats sidetrack vote on auto industry bailout, demand Big Three develop plan

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The $25 billion rescue plan for the auto industry, desperately sought by Detroit's beleaguered Big Three, collapsed Thursday as Congress drew the line at one more bailout and Democrats said they wouldn't even consider it until the companies produced a convincing plan for rebuilding their once-mighty industry.

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The demise of the rescue -- at least for now -- left uncertain the fate of General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, and sent Wall Street spiraling to its lowest level in years. The Dow Jones industrials dropped 445 points, the second straight plunge of more than 400, and hit the lowest point in nearly six years.

The carmakers have been clobbered by lackluster sales and choked credit, and are battling to stay afloat through year's end. Failure of one or more of the Big Three would be a severe further blow to the floundering economy -- and to many Americans' view of the nation's industrial strength -- and throw a million or more additional workers off the job.

Just Thursday, the government reported that laid-off workers' new claims for jobless aid had reached a 16-year high and the number of Americans searching for work had soared past 10 million. Congress approved a measure to extend jobless benefits through the holidays, and the White House said President George W. Bush would quickly sign it.

But Democratic leaders scrapped votes on the auto rescue, postponing until next month a politically tricky decision on whether to approve yet another unpopular bailout at a time of economic peril, or risk being blamed for the implosion of an industry that employs millions and has broad reach into all aspects of the U.S. economy.

"Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money," Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said at a hastily called news conference in the Capitol.

GM, Ford and Chrysler quickly issued statements promising to submit the blueprint the Democrats demanded.

Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Congress might return to work in early December for a vote on aid to the carmakers -- but only if they show Congress they could use the funds to transform their struggling industry into a viable one.

For now, however, the Democrats said the aid plan lacked the support to pass Congress and be signed by Bush.

Bush and congressional Republicans had balked at Democrats' suggestion to draw emergency auto industry loans from the $700 billion Wall Street rescue fund. And most Democrats were unwilling to go along with a separate, bipartisan effort backed by the White House to temporarily divert an existing program to help carmakers produce vehicles that burn less gasoline to cover the companies immediate financial needs.

But with GM warning it could go under before year's end, Democratic leaders were unwilling to close up shop for the year and appear to turn a deaf ear to the industry. They called for a Big Three viability plan by Dec. 2, scheduled hearings that week on the report, and said a vote on a bailout could come the week of Dec. 8.

"Yes, we're kicking the can down the road, because that will give us the opportunity to do something positive," Reid said. "But that will only happen if they get their act together."

The White House criticized the delay, saying the plan to let the automakers tap the fuel-efficiency loans for their short-term cash needs should be considered.

"If there are lawmakers who want to help the automakers, and they have a path to do so, why are they going to kick the can down the road?" said Dana Perino, the White House press secretary.

The chief executives of the Big Three automakers appealed personally to lawmakers for the loans this week, saying their problem was the economic meltdown that has walloped their industry -- not that they were manufacturing unappealing cars.

But whatever support they found sagged when it became known that each of them had flown into Washington aboard multimillion-dollar corporate jets. Reid observed that was "difficult to explain" to taxpayers in his hometown of Searchlight, Nev.

Pelosi said she had little patience left for excuses from the carmakers on why they haven't turned their businesses around.

Beyond the auto industry, lawmakers said the public has little appetite for anything else that smacks of a bailout, following the backlash against the $700 billion financial rescue.

"There is a sense that we did not do a good enough job of safeguarding the use of those funds, or providing prevention against abuse. And you could not get, I believe, through either house of Congress today what some people might think was a repeat. That's why we need to take time," said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass.

Even if lawmakers return to vote, they are likely to insist on numerous conditions on any loans. Democrats and Republicans alike want the government to get a chance to share in future profits by the auto companies, require them to limit executives' pay packages and prohibit use of the funds for lobbying or paying shareholders dividends.

In scrapping plans for a vote this week, the Democratic leaders sidetracked a bipartisan agreement to temporarily divert the fuel-efficiency funds to cover the auto companies' operations.

Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., said that plan had a "reasonable chance" of passing, and that the leaders' decision to delay it was "risky and unnecessary."

"We need speed. This is a very, very important moment," Levin said.

Indeed, the Democratic Congress -- having just expanded its majorities in this month's elections -- was under immense pressure to show it could govern in a difficult situation.

"I can't imagine a scenario where they wouldn't come back, unless the answer is that they just don't care. And if that's the case, then the American people ought to know that," Perino said.

The leaders of the Big Three automakers have painted a grim picture of their financial position. They burned through nearly $18 billion in cash reserves during the last quarter -- about $7 billion at GM, almost $8 billion at Ford and $3 billion at Chrysler. GM and Chrysler have said they could collapse in weeks.

The stakes are high. The Detroit automakers employ nearly a quarter-million workers, and more than 730,000 other workers produce materials and parts that go into cars. About 1 million more people work in dealerships nationwide. If just one of the automakers declared bankruptcy, some estimates put U.S. job losses next year as high as 2.5 million.

Associated Press writers Ken Thomas, David Espo, Andrew Taylor and Jennifer Loven contributed to this report.

Last edited by eagle100; 11-20-2008 at 06:00 PM.
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post #217 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 07:37 PM
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Perhaps the message should be that congress will provide the desired loan or bailout to the replacement management team.

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post #218 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle100 View Post

EDIT: I wonder if AIG, and the banks needed a plan for the 850B?
Exactly.

I guess some of the banks do have a plan. Look here: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/off-...000-month.html

That comes from the bank that failed and was bought for peanuts ($1B and change) by Morgan Chase. The person promoted was a vice-president who was vice-presiding during the wonderful times at that bank which ended by the bancrupcy and government-supported purchase by JPM.

I am speechless.
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post #219 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 08:32 PM
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Perhaps the message should be that congress will provide the desired loan or bailout to the replacement management team.
I think that is a reasonable requirement. Or the alternative that I sent to my Congressdude: replace 51% of all board members of the Boards of Directors until all money is repaid and add a shadow to each upper manager of each of the Big Three that has a voting right at each decision level meeting. It would provide instant checks and balances and provide voting collateral.

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post #220 of 261 (permalink) Old 11-20-2008, 10:23 PM
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I think that is a reasonable requirement. Or the alternative that I sent to my Congressdude: replace 51% of all board members of the Boards of Directors until all money is repaid
They could have the board meetings in a little town in France. Vichy, perhaps?


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and add a shadow to each upper manager of each of the Big Three that has a voting right at each decision level meeting. It would provide instant checks and balances and provide voting collateral.
Da, Commissar!


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