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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:15 PM
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Allow me to answer my own question. "Faith in what?" Faith in the truth. A truth so absolute it is beyond perception, beyond empirical evidence, beyond reality, and most especially, beyond contestation.

There is no reality, there is only perception, and the unshakable faith of diseased minds.
And there's that.

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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Allow me to answer my own question. "Faith in what?" Faith in the truth. A truth so absolute it is beyond perception, beyond empirical evidence, beyond reality, and most especially, beyond contestation.

There is no reality, there is only perception, and the unshakable faith of diseased minds.
But surely when you understand truth to be in flux and not static faith becomes shakable. When you understand that reality is like God (infinite) and therefore unknowable via a finite mind the distorted mind becomes no more.

When devils will the blackest sins put on, they do suggest, at first with heavenly shows - Othello
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:23 PM
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Allow me to answer my own question. "Faith in what?" Faith in the truth. A truth so absolute it is beyond perception, beyond empirical evidence, beyond reality, and most especially, beyond contestation.

There is no reality, there is only perception, and the unshakable faith of diseased minds.
If faith is of a diseased mind. I have terminal cancer of FAITH and I don't wan't a cure.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:33 PM
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I certainly struggle with trying to find "rules" that I can use to live my life by without being a hypocrite, or without being in conflict with other rules. Most of these are based on beliefs...beliefs in things I feel to be true. I think one's beliefs can also be referred to as their truths. While they may be static for one, they may not be for others.

There are very, very few universal truths - especially those having anything to do with people and how we live our lives.

I do however think the Declaration of Independence captures some of them, brilliantly and simply and eloquently, like no other document before or since.

Most beliefs are subjective and in some fashion, self-serving, and therefore are not in the same league.

The same is true of facts. There are facts which are indisputable, but that doesn't stop people from disputing them. It doesn't mean they aren't truths. It just means that facts may only be perceived as "truths" based on the observer's ability to comprehend them. Cognitive dissonance is a real bitch for some people (coughJAYHAWKcough). For others, like Walt Whitman, it's a dawdle.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:46 PM
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But surely when you understand truth to be in flux and not static faith becomes shakable. When you understand that reality is like God (infinite) and therefore unknowable via a finite mind the distorted mind becomes no more.
I find faith to be a polar opposite of the concept of individual truths. Anyone can believe facts or "truths"; and true, anyone can chose not to believe in them, but it doesn't change matters.

For those things which cannot be proven, to treat them as truths, requires one to deceive themselves. You should no more believe that you're a millionaire when you're penniless, than you should believe a person who tells you they're a millionaire if they are penniless. Faith, especially in religious terms, is the plainest example of cognitive dissonance at work that has ever existed, and it's probably a large part of why cognitive dissonance has been studied so broadly and deeply.

Religion is a gigantic mindfuck, and there may be a case to be made that ties the increasing difficulty people have holding their faith to the many ills society faces. There's a lot of people whose subconscious and even perhaps conscious minds are very busy trying to resolve "I believe in God, and that the Church loves and cares for people and is free of sin and will help me get to Heaven" with the stories of alcoholic, gay, embezzling, drug addicted, pedophile clergymen abusing their positions.

My family is religious (not insanely so), and I spent a lot of time going to church. It never made sense why I needed it, ever. One thing I know to be true about myself, is that I implicitly distrust anyone or anything that requires sacrifices from me that they themselves are unwilling to make. I also distrust any ritual that cannot be shown to directly result in a desired outcome; in other words, that which does not add value. Not true for everyone, but true for me. Absolutely. Not in flux.

I'm increasingly convinced that we are a nation in desperate need of an overhaul of our educational system. I can't think of a way to do that which won't hurt really bad for about 20 years, but there are no two ways about it.
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 07:48 PM
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But surely when you understand truth to be in flux and not static faith becomes shakable. When you understand that reality is like God (infinite) and therefore unknowable via a finite mind the distorted mind becomes no more.
Ah, the path toward heresy.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-08-2008, 08:37 PM
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Religion brings many together but it seems to be the deepest divider between all people.Yet it does NOT divide good from bad,truth from lies nor right from wrong. Ultimately,it ends up being used... by its' respective followers... to justify various forms of prejudice. Religion too often justifies intolerance.I think religions are at war within themselves, sometimes allowing, sometimes denying philosophical dissension.I guess most of us want to feel some progress is being made in all this.Otherwise, banning religion may be in the cards at some point.
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