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post #41 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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Because it's you, I will address your post and I will then have nothing more to say on the subject as per my original post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
I've kind of heard this chant lately from a few people, dismissive of Obama, writing him off as nothing more than a good orator.

I think most people intrinsically know that a person who speaks as well as Obama does, and who conveys the message he conveys, isn't a "cue card politician". Which is to say, his gift for oration has a basis in very real, very valuable attributes. The first is intellect, and the second is leadership. You can't fake that stuff, not for long...certainly not for two years with the entire world following you and watching everything you say and do, non stop, day in and day out.
When someone has core beliefs and is a good orator, they can speak eloquently and extemporaneously on those beliefs. That said, obviously the candidates used teleprompters to deliver their message in the best possible manner. If the speech is not truly representative of that talented person's core beliefs, the teleprompter still allows a strong delivery of those ideas. A sudden loss of that technology during such a speech would cause problems. You've seen the YouTube videos.

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I just don't find arguments against Obama based solely on experience to be meritorious of discussion. I can think of a few hundred very experienced politicians who have no business being President, for any variety of reasons.
Agreed. In this case, however, we're only comparing two.

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Absent of another 10 years to convince people of what 50-60 million of us know to be true today, the best evidence you have of Obama - the man - is what he's written and what he's said and what he's accomplished (both before the election and after).
Those first two things were the main ammunition that the far right attacked with. That he was a successful community organizer in Chicago is beyond refute. He worked to get summer jobs programs off the ground and advised a successful asbestos removal effort. I believe it is his ability to organize and influence that has made him what he is today. Again, not necessarily a bad thing but not really 'management'.

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Anyway, for people who want to tell 3,000,000 individual contributors and tens of millions of voters (over 50% of the vote, with over 64% turnout) that they're all completely dead wrong about Obama, the microphone is on right over there.
I'm not saying that (JUST) over 50% of the vote is wrong. I'm saying that percentage is not high enough to ignore the views of the remainder that numbers (JUST, counting the Naderites, etc) under 50%. Nothing more.

Once again. That is all past now. It's time to look ahead.

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post #42 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 01:58 PM
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post #43 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Because Barrarites just doesn't read very well.

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post #44 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 03:37 PM
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I do not want to add life to a thread that ends up focusing on the shortcomings of John McCain. Dig, your previous supposition that John McCain was left with no option but to take the low road has been proven wrong by the results. That strategy did not work as evidenced by the election results. To suggest McCain was dealt a particularly difficult hand, as you did, and that Obama was dealt all aces, is a very distorted view and that perspective seems to be what prevents you from seeing Obama for what he is - a remarkable, natural, leader with a willingness to put the greater good ahead of his own personal good.

Obama has been at the top of his peer group since he got through wondering who and what he was, a typical adolescent, internalized crisis. He had the opportunity to be a token, well paid Black dude on a big corporate US legal staff, or even a partner of a large and influential law firm, directly out of law school. He "elected" to be a Chicago community organizer instead. And he quickly established himself as a credible resource. there.

Obama was not dealt a hand of aces in this race. He was the longest long shot a year ago that could be imagined. He had a large portion of white America waiting for him to do something "niggardly" so they could dismiss him. He had to run against the Clinton machine to win the nomination, not the actual election, and he beat them. With a brand new, untried and rapidly growing mostly volunteer staff. He ran a near perfect campaign because anything less would result in failure. He had the hopes of the entire Black, and most of the rest of the minority populations resting on his shoulders when they were not even supporting him over Clinton. He got the nomination months after the GOP nominee wrapped up his primary season, and got a relatively late start after a much more grueling primary.

Dig, Obama won because he was able to overcome all that stuff, run a near perfect campaign, and inspire Americans to hope to reestablish what it means in the world to be American. John McCain lost because he didn't have something anywhere near as compelling, and, faced with that, chose to run a negative campaign and appeal to divisive emotions.

I don't know about you, but I think John McCain would have been better off either coming up with a more compelling vision to offer, or taking the high road he pulled himself up onto again last night. In the end, standing firm for what you believe in is what the man John McCain would like to be remembered for, not the petty Ayers bullshit, or socialist bullshit, or terrorist or other distorted bullshit.

Oh, I can't leave these alone either:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post
When someone has core beliefs and is a good orator, they can speak eloquently and extemporaneously on those beliefs. That said, obviously the candidates used teleprompters to deliver their message in the best possible manner. If the speech is not truly representative of that talented person's core beliefs, the teleprompter still allows a strong delivery of those ideas. A sudden loss of that technology during such a speech would cause problems. You've seen the YouTube videos.
Did Obama fall on his face during one of the speeches because of a teleprompter failure? I think Obama knew what he wanted to say and didn't seem to depend on teleprompters much at all, last night or at any time, including the speech on race. I don't see the applicability of your point.


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Agreed. In this case, however, we're only comparing two.
And, based on the challenge Obama faced at the onset, his perceived lack of experience and the dearth of readily available experienced people to run a campaign against the Clinton Machine, Obama built a staff to implement a strategy that won. McCain won against a field of wannabees without the means to mount a real campaign (Rudy G was the front runner until people got to know him and then the only choice was McCain, and all McCain had to do was not lose). A completely different set of circumstances.

McCain then failed, much as you apparently are doing, to acknowledge the feat Obama had managed - beating the Clinton Machine in the Clinton's Sandbox. He was surprised and overwhelmed by Obama and responded with a less than winning strategy and tactics.

Of the two men, I think Obama demonstrated leadership skills, the intellectual capability and the guts to stick to the high road (granted it was a necessary element of Obama's strategy) that are the prerequisites to be President of the United States. I do not think those characteristics, or any others that are vital to the success of the Chief Executive of the nation, were demonstrated by John McCain's campaign.

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Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post
Those first two things were the main ammunition that the far right attacked with. That he was a successful community organizer in Chicago is beyond refute. He worked to get summer jobs programs off the ground and advised a successful asbestos removal effort. I believe it is his ability to organize and influence that has made him what he is today. Again, not necessarily a bad thing but not really 'management'.
I think this is one of the essential definitions of "management." I think that you find there is something else more important, but left it unnamed, curious. And, what do you cite in this category to suggest McCain is better qualified?


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I'm not saying that (JUST) over 50% of the vote is wrong. I'm saying that percentage is not high enough to ignore the views of the remainder that numbers (JUST, counting the Naderites, etc) under 50%. Nothing more.
And this is something I agree with you about, and I think Obama agrees with you about. He said something that largely went unnoticed by the crowd I was watching with - namely that he will listen the most carefully and intently when he disagrees with "us" about an issue or policy. I think this is the plainest and most honest expression of his outlook and the main distinction I saw with Hillary Clinton. He will look for the voice of those who don't agree, to get their input and perspective. There is something to learn from those who disagree and often little to learn from those who just agree.

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Once again. That is all past now. It's time to look ahead.
I agree here to, and hope the Obama administration lives up to its promise.

Jim
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post #45 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 03:41 PM
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... "niggardly" ...
Niggery.

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
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post #46 of 46 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
...And this is something I agree with you about, and I think Obama agrees with you about. He said something that largely went unnoticed by the crowd I was watching with - namely that he will listen the most carefully and intently when he disagrees with "us" about an issue or policy. I think this is the plainest and most honest expression of his outlook and the main distinction I saw with Hillary Clinton. He will look for the voice of those who don't agree, to get their input and perspective. There is something to learn from those who disagree and often little to learn from those who just agree.



I agree here to, and hope the Obama administration lives up to its promise.

Jim
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