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post #121 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:13 PM
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The upper left corner of Indiana has become a miserable place. I was up there last year working on a project where one company had bought another, and was shutting down operations in the Gary area that threw a few thousand people out of work, and the company sold the machine shop equipment to China as they moved all the work down to Texas, where I assumed the object was to get cheap illegal labor to fatten their fucking profits. So many of the cities up there have been wiped out like that, that their rental properties have become cheap slums that are the dumping grounds for Chicago's out of luck people. The only prosperity in Indiana is in the cornfields, and they have become so mechanized there is really no voter base there, just big money. The lower left corner, which is another heavily industrial area, is in the same shape as the Gary area. The state has become an emblem of what's wrong with this country - profits before people.
And what's wrong with libertarianism, unfortunately. As much sympathy as I have with the concept, it hardly speaks to the wreckage of unfettered capitalism that we have staring in our face almost everywhere now.
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post #122 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:22 PM
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The Democrats of the old days had it right: people come before profits. We lost our way somewhere. Obama is the promise of bringing some of it back.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #123 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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And what's wrong with libertarianism, unfortunately. As much sympathy as I have with the concept, it hardly speaks to the wreckage of unfettered capitalism that we have staring in our face almost everywhere now.
Where is this 'unfettered capitalism' of which you speak?

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #124 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:37 PM
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Wasn't much fettering of the credit default swap market, SIV's, and sub-prime mortgage lending...
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post #125 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Oh yes there surely was... Might wanna look before you leap.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #126 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 02:54 PM
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Wasn't much fettering of the credit default swap market, SIV's, and sub-prime mortgage lending...
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Oh yes there surely was... Might wanna look before you leap.
I don't know, those markets were pretty much wild wild west for a few years. Any regulatory restraints that were suppose to be on them were not seriously enforced and many of the previous ones from the past 60 years had been removed in the 1999-2004 timeframe.

While there were incentives on sub-primes on some levels that would suggest fettering, the CDS, SIV, Hedgefunds, leveraging and all the various instruments that Greenie built in the 90s were pretty much flying without radar for the last eight years. But since the Wall Street numbers were going UP, who cared?

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #127 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know, those markets were pretty much wild wild west for a few years. Any regulatory restraints that were suppose to be on them were not seriously enforced and many of the previous ones from the past 60 years had been removed in the 1999-2004 timeframe.

While there were incentives on sub-primes on some levels that would suggest fettering, the CDS, SIV, Hedgefunds, leveraging and all the various instruments that Greenie built in the 90s were pretty much flying without radar for the last eight years. But since the Wall Street numbers were going UP, who cared?
That was government-initiated horseshit to stimulate a slowing economy, which is primarily what caused the financial disaster. Unfettered means unfettered, and unfettered from day one.

Federal Reserve, the Glass-Steagall Act, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, Bretton Woods, the Nixon Shock, the CRA, etc., etc. Oh, and did I mention the Ferderal Reserve? Lots of fettering about...

BTW, let's not forget the Federal Reserve.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #128 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 03:51 PM
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I dunno Ron, the market that emerged from trying to get shit loans off of bank books was a rather new invention, and was left to ride roughshod over the entire globe like a gigantic high-pressure water valve someone turned on and couldn't find the hose at the other end.
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post #129 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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There are no government controlled interest rates, no restrictions, no easement of restrictions, no government influence/interference of any kind in an environment of unfettered capitalism. The current financial crisis is entirely the fault of our federal government interfering and tinkering with a supposedly free market to the detriment of us all. Did I mention the Federal Reserve? Did you investigate the Nixon Shock? Let's not leave the CRA or HUD out of the equation either. And finally, remember that without Bretton Woods, there is no Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #130 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 04:04 PM
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Yes, I'm familiar with the Nixon Shock. Yes, the Fed has lots of culpability. I'm just saying the "unfettered" term fits what happened with the magical emergence of SIV's and CDS's awfully well.
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