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post #111 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-04-2008, 09:59 PM
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^ I didn't know H. Ross was even in the mix....
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post #112 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-04-2008, 10:01 PM
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^ Thought you voted McCain...?

The school kids elected McCain apparently, but for my boy and his friend, the issue was Iraq. They voted for Obama. I was impressed.
You know, I find it amazing that only about 9% of all voters considered Iraq war a serious issue. Even though Bush and Cheney came up with no fewer than 26 different reasons why they invaded Iraq (all of them bogus, of course), many people pretend to agree that somehow it is OK that US invaded Iraq on false pretenses and are incredibly complacent about killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people who did nothing to us. This war is a crime of monumental proportions. For me, Iraq was the number one issue. I absolutely refused to vote for another warmonger.
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post #113 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-04-2008, 10:12 PM Thread Starter
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^Werd.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #114 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-04-2008, 10:13 PM
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President Obama and the world

By John Simpson
BBC World Affairs Editor


The United States has seen the biggest transformation in its standing in the world since the election of John Fitzgerald Kennedy in November 1960.
The world's expectations of an Obama administration are high

This is a country which has habitually, sometimes irritatingly, regarded itself as young and vibrant, the envy of the world. Often this is merely hype. But there are times when it is entirely true.

With Barack Obama's victory, one of these moments has arrived.

The US has never been so unpopular, so derided, and so dismissed by the outside world as it has in the latter stages of George W Bush's presidency. The other day I asked Madeleine Albright, President Clinton's formidable secretary of state, if she could remember a time when people hated America so much.

Expectations abroad

"Not in my lifetime," she answered. "I feel very strongly about this country, and what an exceptional, amazing country it is. But I honestly think this is about as bad as I've seen it."

Opinion polls around the world have confirmed America's unpopularity. And the chance that a young, apparently pleasant and modest black man might become its president was greeted favourably everywhere.

Last summer a poll for the BBC World Service, conducted in 22 countries, indicated that people preferred Barack Obama to John McCain by four to one. Almost half said that if Senator Obama were elected, it would change their view of the United States completely.

America is no longer the power it was. It can still lead, but it is no longer in a position to dictate to the wider world.

For eight years the word that people around the world have used again and again to describe the approach of George W Bush's presidency is "arrogance". The tone in Washington seemed to be one of superiority amounting almost to contempt.

Think of the speeches by men like Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, or Paul Bremer. All were closely concerned with the occupation of Iraq, which was carried out in defiance of opinion in most of the rest of the world.

Why did the US invade Iraq? "Because we are America," said another leading figure in the enterprise, famously. "We can."

Outside this country, most people would probably agree with Madeleine Albright's judgement when she spoke to me: "I think Iraq will go down in history as the greatest disaster of American foreign policy - worse than Vietnam."

In the rush to war in 2003, when many American politicians were frightened to stand out against the crowd, Barack Obama condemned the invasion loudly and publicly.

No guarantee

The fact that he has been elected president is his reward for that. And everyone around the world who felt that the Iraq war was wrong will feel that America has now chosen a different path - a path that leads away from extraordinary rendition, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, waterboarding and all the rest of it.

America is no longer the power it was. Without meaning to, President Bush demonstrated that. It can still lead, but it is no longer in a position to dictate to the wider world.
A black family in the White House will change America's image abroad

Barack Obama clearly understands this. As an African-American (literally, since his father was from Kenya) his background is not one of privilege and superiority. He will be open to the world in a way President Bush never was. And he will show once again the value of the American dream.

This is no guarantee that he will be a success as President. Jimmy Carter understood the US's reduced position in the post-Vietnam world, and he refused to dictate to the world. Nowadays most Americans regard him as a failure.

But the outside world is set to be delighted by Barack Obama's victory. And its view of America will change accordingly.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" - Seneca
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post #115 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-04-2008, 10:15 PM
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I've voted for the same candidate in two of the last three presidential elections. Ask Ron, he probably knows me better than anyone else around here.


You mean, Heywood Ja Blowme...........
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post #116 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by p100 View Post
You know, I find it amazing that only about 9% of all voters considered Iraq war a serious issue. Even though Bush and Cheney came up with no fewer than 26 different reasons why they invaded Iraq (all of them bogus, of course), many people pretend to agree that somehow it is OK that US invaded Iraq on false pretenses and are incredibly complacent about killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent people who did nothing to us. This war is a crime of monumental proportions. For me, Iraq was the number one issue. I absolutely refused to vote for another warmonger.
You and me both, which is why I couldn't vote for McCain.
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post #117 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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To me, the most amazing story last night had to be Indiana. Both IN and CO have been tagged swing states, but they really aren't, they're both GOP strongholds. Indiana has traditionally been right there with UT and ID, fer kryst sake. Nothing amazed me about this election as much as seeing IN colored blue. Kudos to the winds of change.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #118 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 09:04 AM
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You mean, Heywood Ja Blowme...........
Let me introduce you to Ivana Bitchyakockov.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #119 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 09:11 AM
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To me, the most amazing story last night had to be Indiana. Both IN and CO have been tagged swing states, but they really aren't, they're both GOP strongholds. Indiana has traditionally been right there with UT and ID, fer kryst sake. Nothing amazed me about this election as much as seeing IN colored blue. Kudos to the winds of change.
The upper left corner of Indiana has become a miserable place. I was up there last year working on a project where one company had bought another, and was shutting down operations in the Gary area that threw a few thousand people out of work, and the company sold the machine shop equipment to China as they moved all the work down to Texas, where I assumed the object was to get cheap illegal labor to fatten their fucking profits. So many of the cities up there have been wiped out like that, that their rental properties have become cheap slums that are the dumping grounds for Chicago's out of luck people. The only prosperity in Indiana is in the cornfields, and they have become so mechanized there is really no voter base there, just big money. The lower left corner, which is another heavily industrial area, is in the same shape as the Gary area. The state has become an emblem of what's wrong with this country - profits before people.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 11-05-2008 at 09:14 AM.
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post #120 of 130 (permalink) Old 11-05-2008, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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It was always Indiana's East St. Louis...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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