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post #51 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-24-2008, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
This is in response to JimSmith's question as to why it matters if Obama is associated with Ayers. There is no argument that he has an association.
OK, that was a weak attempt at trying to justify your innuendo about somehow being in a room on business and social occasions with Ayers has somehow contaminated Obama. But since you tried your best rather than just dismiss your attempt, I will try one last time to point out how your argument fails any test of reasonableness.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
1. Ayers sponsored an event/coffee in the beginning of Obama’s Political Career. It is unclear if it took place in Ayer’s home or a hotel (The Ramada) or both. What is crystal clear is that Ayers did in fact sponsor it.
My first reaction is, so what? Where is the beef? How does this implicate Obama in some kind of scheme with terrorists?

I see you bothered to check Wikipedia, which has an extensive write up on the subject. If you bothered to read the write up you might find many other explanations - one being that Ayers was part of a social and political group in Chicago where Obama lived, and "In 1995, Ayers and Dohrn hosted a small gathering at their home in the Hyde Park section of Chicago, the neighborhood in which the Obamas lived, at which then-state Senator Alice J. Palmer introduced Barack Obama to the group as her chosen successor for the 1996 Democratic primary." The meeting was not some meeting of subversives plotting to overthrow the US Government. That it was in Ayers' home is not significant, or if it is, you surely haven't shown that to be the case. I could guess that the honorable State Senator, Alice J. Palmer had more than a casual relationship with Ayers, and likely asked Ayers to host the meeting, given that "Dr. Palmer was the founding executive director of Chicago Cities in Schools and creator and founding director of the Chicago Metropolitan YMCA Youth and Government Program" all activities that sound like they were up Ayers' alley at the time.

I am still wondering what you make of this, and how.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
2. There is a relationship that is present. The closeness of the relationship is what is being argued about. Obama’s campaign admits this on their site Fight The Smears - Learn the Truth About Barack Obama when they say:

“What we object to are the McCain-Palin campaign’s attempts to sway voters – in ads and on the stump – with false and misleading statements about the relationship, which was never very close.”

So there was a relationship.
Again, so what? What is your point? You had the same Wikipedia page open, why didn't you read it?

It seems their "relationship" began in about 1993:
"Obama and Ayers served together for three years on the board of the Woods Fund of Chicago, an anti-poverty foundation established in 1941. Obama had joined the nine-member board in 1993, and had attended a dozen of the quarterly meetings together with Ayers in the three years up to 2002, when Obama left his position on the board, which Ayers chaired for two years. Laura S. Washington, chairwoman of the Woods Fund, said the small board had a collegial "friendly but businesslike" atmosphere, and met four times a year for a half-day, mostly to approve grants. The two also appeared together on academic panel discussions, including a 1997 University of Chicago discussion on juvenile justice. They again appeared in 2002 at an academic panel co-sponsored by the Chicago Public Library.[1] One panel discussion in which they both appeared was organized by Obama's wife, Michelle."

Sounds like they had a congenial, professional business relationship where Ayers saw first hand that Obama had excellent executive level skills. Which might explain his support for the board selecting Obama for the President of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge:

"Obama served as president of the board of directors for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a large education-related nonprofit organization that Ayers was instrumental in starting. The board disbursed grants to schools and raised private matching funds while Ayers worked with the operational arm of the effort. Both attended some board meetings in common starting in 1995, retreats, and at least one news conference together as the education program started. They continued to attend meetings together during the 1995-2001 period when the program was operating."

More, normal, everyday interactions between people cooperating on a mission to improve conditions for American kids in the inner city. Is that what you find so subversive? What is it? This review is making Ayers seem like a great guy, by the way, and it sounds like the City of Chicago thought so too:

"In 1997 Chicago awarded him its Citizen of the Year award for his work on the (successful Chicago Annenberg Challenge Grant applicaton) project."

This guy is sounding like someone you should pal around with, and actually absorb some of his values.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
3. Ayers has confessed in publications that he was responsible for planting bombs back in the 60’s Ayers participated in the bombings of New York City Police Headquarters in 1970, the United States Capitol building in 1971, and The Pentagon in 1972, as he noted in his 2001 book, Fugitive Days.

Because of a water leak caused by the Pentagon bombing, aerial bombardments during the Vietnam War had to be halted for several days. Ayers writes:

(Bill Ayers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Obama. This is supposed to be about Obama. Obama was 8 years old and thousands of miles away. How does this bear on Obama, or the person that Obama has worked with going by the name of Ayers?

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
4. When Obama made his first run for political office, articles in both the Chicago Defender and the Hyde Park Herald featured among his qualifications his position as chairman of the board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a foundation where Ayers was a founder and guiding force. (Stanley Kurtz, National Review Online)
See the discussion above. No one disputes that fact that Ayers, after the charges against him were dropped and he emerged from "underground" with his wife, and began a productive, uplifting and unselfish life in the field of education, was instrumental in the success of the grant application that has been awarded to the City of Chicago for over $54 million for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, and that while still working in the operating arm of the organization known as the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, that Barack Obama was the President of the organization.

You are not making a point here.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
5. Obama assumed the Annenberg board chairmanship only months before his first run for office, and almost certainly received the job at the behest of Bill Ayers. During Obama’s time as Annenberg board chairman, Ayers’s own education projects received substantial funding. During its first year, the Chicago Annenberg Challenge struggled with significant concerns about possible conflicts of interest. With a writ to aid Chicago’s public schools, the Annenberg challenge played a deeply political role in Chicago’s education wars, and as Annenberg board chairman, Obama clearly aligned himself with Ayers’s radical views on education issues. (Stanley Kurtz, National Review Online)
Wow. Given Ayers and Obama had worked together on another project, with Obama a board member dealing with decisions on program selection and funding, it seems more likely to me that Obama impressed Ayers with his executive skills and clear thinking. As for Ayers' radical views on education, well, since Ayers wrote the grant application that was subsequently selected for the award of all that funding, I don't think it is much of a stretch to say the charter was aligned with Ayers' views on education.

More huffing and puffing, but no argument of substance. Even with the innuendo of "conflict of interest." Nothing but some guy's opinion. Is that guy an Obama supporter by any chance? Oh. Stanley is not neutral on Obama. He is pushing the Ayers "relationship" as a worthy subject for others to spend more time digging into, for what ever reasons he has.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
6. Obama’s qualifications before this were as a community organizer. CAC had a $49.2million grant that Obama took over with no prior Executive experience. That’s a lot of money for a person who has never headed a company or had other executive type experience. That tells me that Ayers trusted him because he knew him well.
Yeah. Like he spent three years on a board with him in a similar capacity, meeting 4 times a year, dispensing funds to various projects....sounds like Obama acquitted himself well, showing extraordinary executive skills, and having appropriate, relevant experience.

What is your point? They conspired to rip off the Chicago Annenberg Foundation together? You had the Wikipedia page open, why didn't you read it?
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post #52 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-24-2008, 06:30 PM
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No one has said that Obama is a terrorist. The lack of political history and the amount of secrecy around him is what concerns me. For someone who belongs to a radical, racist church that preaches about the evil white man, Whose wife said on the record "for the first time in my life I am proud of my country" Questions about Michelle Obama Held dual citizenship, has a close personal relationship with a known terrorist, and has socialistic views on how this country should be run, and has political donations coming from known enemies of the United States, cannot provide proof that he was even born in this country.....I for one am not comfortable giving him the reigns to the country.

"Fat, Drunk and Stupid is no way to go through life."
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post #53 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-24-2008, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop View Post
My mamma always told me to choose my friends carefully because people are judged by the company they keep. Or like the saying "birds of a feather flock together"

If the guy smells like a cesspool, that's because of where he has been (and may still be).
So are you talking about McCain's friendship with Charles Keating?

McCain's friendship with [and employment of] Rick Davis as campaign manager and lobbyist of Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac?

McCain's friendship with Phil Gramm, architect of of Gramm-Bliley the bill that deregulated the Financial Sector which triggered the cascade of dominoes that has resulted in the multi Trillion Dollar debacle of our Economics system?

Then of course there is the Rev John Hagee and G. Gordan Liddy. Then there is John's good friend, a collector of all things Malcolm X, a man who follows much of Malcolm X's views...Justice Clarance Thomas.

Then we can talk about McCain Campaign SENIOR advisors Charlie Black, Paul Manifort and Doug Goodyear. They have been representing, besides the good folks at Fannie Mae some of the more brutal regimes in the world. Countries like. Myanmar, Rwanda and the Sudan.

Well and then there is that whole "I don't like lobbyists but I have a hundred or so on staff" thingie he has going.

Doug Goodyear, McCain's pick to run RN Convention resigns over Myanmar lobbyist ties | Crooks and Liars

Your mama might just have been right. But I don't think you really paid attention to the entire lesson.


Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #54 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-24-2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
So why does all of this matter? It matters because when we look at the totality of Obama’s controversial associations we see people such as Ayers, Wright, Pfleger, etc. These are all people who are extremists and anti capitalist in their views.
Capitalism does not equal America. The Constitution of the United States says nothing about having the population bow to the almighty god of capitalism. Capitalism is, in fact, proven to be little different than the medieval trade practices involving land owner classes vs. peasants. The landowner class was "royalty" and the rest were peasants. The vision of the Founding Fathers was not to create another version of men enslaving other men using an economic philosophy instead of the "royalty" concept.

It is entirely American to have and express a different opinion. I have no interest in digging into the last guy on your list, but Ayers sounds to me like a big time contributor to American society today. You, apparently, were not around in the Vietnam War days, but it was another, prior example of American might used for some imperialist bullshit goals. The whole war concept was, like Iraq, sold to the American people with a bullshit story of a "Domino Theory" which has since been entirely and thoroughly debunked.

The policy that kept the war going was killing hundreds of Americans every month, for a total of over 50,000 and returning a half million physically maimed and uncounted hundreds of thousands mentally damaged Americans to rejoin society. Ayers, while definitely out on the fringes, was on the right side. The policy that kept that war going was bad policy and to sit by and do nothing was, in his opinion, immoral. I agree, and participated in my share of protests. But there is a line and Ayers apparently crossed it (I was unable to find where one of his bombs actually killed an innocent American - it seems his buddies sucked at the whole explosives business and killed themselves off in a series of accidents), although, the government apparently crossed one too as they dropped charges rather than address a claim they were guilty of misconduct in pursuing Ayers. Had he killed anyone I think the "national security" issue behind the misconduct would have been unable to prevent the criminal case against Ayers.

And, as for Reverend Wright, well, do some more research. The man has devoted his life to the poor people in Chicago. He has never incited any of them to riot, or attack white America. He has never told anyone to fire a gun at the heads of the ATF agents coming because they wear body armor and body shots won't kill them. I think you would do yourself a world of good to spend every Sunday for the next dozen years in Reverend Wright's church, listening to what he has to say.

The last guy is an unknown to me, but likely nothing more than another guy you don't approve of who has crossed paths with Obama. So what.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
The difference between these guys and say Gordon Liddy is that Liddy was convicted of Conspiracy, Burglary, and Illegal Wiretapping. He has also been quoted as telling listeners to defend themselves with force if the ATF comes to take their legally obtained weapons. He told his listeners to take “Head Shots” as the agents were wearing bullet proof vests. This in the days during the Clinton Administration’s handling of Waco and the Branch Davidian compound.

Liddy never made a bomb to kill people, Liddy never planted a bomb at police headquarters in NYC. Liddy has always been a supporter of Capitalism and Democracy.

Ayers has made anti personnel bombs (it blew up in his NYC apartment killing several of his associates), he planted bombs at the pentagon and at the Police Headquarters in NYC.


Liddy’s crimes were against his perceived enemies. He never used violence or admitted to using violence to carry out the crimes he committed. He did say that he would have if given the chance, but I prefer to deal with demonstrated behaviour.
Liddy is a convicted felon. While you may think it is ok to advise people (with little neural activity in their heads doing them any good, and even less that originated there) on how to most effectively kill ATF agents because they represent an administration of the US Government you don't approve of, I would call that participating in a conspiracy to kill ATF agents. Seeing that the "Branch Davidians" had been successful a few months before the siege, there was nothing innocent about this.

And, the Watergate break-in was nothing if not an assault on the principles of our Constitutional process of electing our government. There is no "principle" that excuses this assault on America, and to belittle the severity of the warped values such an outlook on our country represents is either bleeding red partisanship, or a sign of allegiance to something other than our Constitution. That it is ok for someone with such values to be praised by McCain (does he share them too? Sounds like he, at the very least, admires them), or to be beholden to McCain for running a fundraiser for the man is truly just blind party obedience.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Why won’t Obama admit what his political associations are? Is he embarrassed by Ayers, Wright, and Pfleger? These are only casual relationships right? Then why would he have anything to do with them?
What does he have to do with them, other than his casual relationships? Dig something up instead of just another rewording of your very shallow accusations that you defend by merely repeating them.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Obama wants the credit for hanging out with the Left Wing Wack Jobs of the Democratic party but none of the fallout. Well, if he is going to associate with them and take their money then he has to support their plans and ideas in order to maintain their support. So we see things like:

-Obama’s income-tax hike on upper brackets will hit vast numbers of small businesses - they'd face the highest rates they've seen in decades.
Bush's reign does seem like decades at times, but, it has only been 8 years since he was elected, and in those same eight years it is likely true that people making over $250K per year have enjoyed lower taxes. And it is likely true that Obama will ruin that for them.

Most companies making over $250K per year hire an accountant. They pay no fucking taxes and they won't pay more taxes as long as they keep the accountant. Only really dumb business owners pay themselves a big salary so they can pay taxes on it at a higher rate. Once you get some money and learn how to use the system to keep it, you will understand. Tax brackets and taxes paid are two different things.

This is a case where the sorry fuckers who actually take a $250K + salary from their business are using you to and other people who have no chance of making that kind of pay to fight their fights, while, should they win, the suckers will continue to pay higher taxes. Dumb.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
-Obama’s plan includes some of the most lethal tax increases imaginable, including a jump in the capital-gains rate. Currently at 15% to 20%
I think money earning money for rich people without them doing any work is still income, it is for them, and therefore I don't see the big benefit to people working for every dime they have to let the rich people have their money do the work for them, and then earn them a lower tax rate. For most of those people, 20% is still good enough to keep them from changing their salary vs. incentive stock plans balance since the salary part should get them a 34% or so tax rate.

Warren Buffet made the point that for every dollar his office cleaner woman earned she paid 16 cents in federal income tax. For every dollar he makes he pays slightly less. Because 99% of his pay is taxed at the capital gains rate. He made the point that he thinks that is a bit distorted and that the last 7 years have been ungodly generous to people who make ungodly amounts of money.

I am with Warren. I don't feel sorry for myself or others who pull earnings out of investments and have to pay taxes on the money at a higher rate. And it won't have jack shit for an effect on people worrying if the 20% is better than 35%. Most of those guys are smart enough to figure that out.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
-He'd expand government spending massively, with new public-works projects plus hand out a token $500 welfare check that he calls a tax cut to everyone else.
If that is combined with changing the role of welfare, the balance of things is good. Today welfare money is handed to someone without doing any work. So, in the grand scheme of capitalism the initial transaction is a "no gainer" for the payee. Public works projects using labor from the welfare rolls would be an improvement. But hey, you believe you are going to be hurt by this, don't you?

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
In other words, Obama is not a criminal because he associates with Ayers, he is a socialist who will do nothing but raise taxes and raise spending. This has been the biggest frustration of many republicans under Bush. All Bush has done is spend like a drunken sailor!

We need an administration that understands that if you make it more expensive for businesses to hire people, they will not hire people! If you make it more expensive to re-invest in their own companies, they won’t reinvest and hence, reduced rates of innovation.
There is no evidence in this last economic crisis that the excessive tax benefits to rich people did anything but make some richer, greedier and more unscrupulous rich people.

You cannot "innovate" in this country when the manufacturing base is in China, or India or Korea, or wherever it is other than in the US. Innovation is driven by the builders and users. Innovation will take place with investments, but those investments are being made in facilities outside the US. Frankly I am not really interested in advancing that MBA "innovation."

And, when business people don't need to hire more people to make more money they won't. It has nothing to do with any of your emotional mumbo jumbo about socialism.

Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
My whole point is that Obama’s record of public service is so small that we do not know how he would fall on an issue. Therefore we have to look at other indicators of what his principles are. That is where his associations come in. When you associate with people for decades, that have Marxist economic ideals and then do nothing to show people that you do not believe these same principles, what conclusions are we to draw?
Obama's record of public service is quite extensive. Read the whole articles in Wikipedia, not just the parts that reference conservative writers' opinions that don't present the facts in a balanced manner. Jim
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post #55 of 55 (permalink) Old 10-25-2008, 12:42 AM
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Frankly, none of this is even worth responding to. Anybody with half a brain, realizes it's utter hogwash, which leaves us with the 28% club of oafish turds to repeat this garbage ad nausem. Nobody cares about this crap, except morons, and they are too stupid to realize that it isn't working, even with less than two weeks to go. Chumps.
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