Who won the final debate? - Page 13 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

View Poll Results: Who won?
This one 6 26.09%
That one 17 73.91%
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post #121 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:03 PM
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Really? Which political party has the most to gain from keeping the poor in the ghettos? The party that CREATED social programs or the party that wants to wean people OFF social programs? If social programs worked in their present state, we wouldn't have as many people on them as we do.
The concept of weaning sounds great, really GREAT. But weaning to what end. Where are the jobs to fill the voids? Where is the infrastructure to absorb the 5 Million folks to be weaned? Add that to the 10 Million of recent unemployed [those collecting benefits].

Sounds really good to wean. It is the goal of EVERYONE. But until there is an infrastructure to address those weaned people, they are still very poor and very much out of luck.

To answer your question, the Party that wants to keep labor rates cheap and keep most monies with stockholders would be the one that has the most to gain from keeping folks poor.

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post #122 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
I missed the debate, but McCain must have done very well...

GALLUP SHOCK: 49 OBAMA, 47 MCCAIN WITH LIKELY VOTERS
um, read the data. Those numbers were 10/15, prior to the debate.

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post #123 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:05 PM
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I just love watching Kookbergers squirm...
Then you must be very sad.



Sorry.

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post #124 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:09 PM
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So he's not a plumber because "This individual has got no schooling, no licenses"? Im in construction and there are plenty of "plumbers" that don't individually have a license. And trust me, there are as many union "hacks" as there are "unlicensed and untrained" non-union plumbers. Being a union worker means jack shit when it comes to the quality of work that is produced. Hiring union workers should mean you're getting a better product, but it doesn't. Finally, if this guy has been doing plumbing work for the same company for 6 plus years, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that he must be an "OK" plumber to have kept his job this long?
It means, in the area in which he works, he is committing FRAUD. It means he LIED. As a licensed profession, if you are not licensed, you are not a plumber, you are simply someone who works with shit.

His 2006 divorce deposition says he made $40,000 in the past 12 months. He either lied on the deposition or he is not a very good helper.

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post #125 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:10 PM
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Left and Right merge?

First off "socialism" is not where one solely finds fraud.It's alive and well in many nations,including USA. Also communism has largely collapsed in Europe and the only places in the world gasping in communisms' last throes are Cuba and a few S American countries. A poster said that once you adopt any "socialist' ideals,you inevitably slide into communism.Well,most of us know thats laughable and obviously the comment of someone who has neither travelled nor studied much. Seems to me that the two extremities of communism and right-wing governments are morphing into a middle ground but is taking on the attributes of the local people.Not saying it will, should or would happen but I think it could happen that USA will take on SOME aspects SIMILAR to Europe while many other nations,like Russia for example, drift towards USA sensibilities/commerce etc. I'm not saying anyone's success depends on becoming like another.But as we all become more tied in financially (communists ironically now finance the anti-communist USA) linguistically (english is the official language of the Sea,the Air, computers and de facto between people) and socially (immigration/emigration and its' effects) the positive attributes will cross-pollinate,so-to-speak.
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post #126 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:21 PM
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So you'd support socialism for the good of all? That's the premise used to try and sell it.
We do not live in a black and white world. There are plenty of variables to the solution between self-serving individualism and socialism.

I personally believe that we will not begin to grow again as a country until we move away from this Me, Me, Me attitude of "I got mine, you get yours". It is a self centered attitude that will not sustain a platform of growth for a wounded economy.

When you look at the times in this country or in others where an economy was bad, where extraordinary measure was required to move forward, the very first thing that happens is that everyone has to pull together. Without that unification, failure is guaranteed. The Great Depression, WW1 and Worldwide Flu Outbreak, WW2. All required EVERYONE to work together and co-contribute. All of those events took YEARS to work out of but the Country came out stronger for the process.

Turn that around and look at the effects of the self serving nature of the Me Generation and we have seen nothing but decline in nearly every facet of this Country. There is a direct correlation.

Socialism, NO. That is a Red Herring word to try and minimize an argument. But to realistically define FAIR SHARE and determine just what it means to address the needs of the COUNTRY. YES. That has to be done. And that is fair to everyone as everyone benefits.

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post #127 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:27 PM
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I contracted my home but I don't have a contractor's license. I built my own cabinets but I don't have a license to build cabinets. I wired my own house but I am not a licensed electrician (and yes, it's up to code and passed inspection). Apparently, you believe that licenses are magic pieces of paper that miraculously turns a dumb ass into a legitimate craftsman when there are plenty of knowledgeable, unlicensed people around who are just as competent as these licensed participants.
But you did not do it for others which would be against the law. And you don't bill yourself as a contractor or electrician. I don't believe I have ever heard of licensing for a cabinet builder, but I could be wrong on that one.

Next time you go in for a surgical procedure, save money and don't bother with a doctor. There are plenty of folks who can use knives, some used to be doctors.

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post #128 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:36 PM
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Are we sure we're on the same page?

socialism |ˈsō sh əˌlizəm|
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
• policy or practice based on this theory.
• (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism.


Your candidate wishes to turn 1/8 of our economy into a social program (healthcare)
Your candidate wishes to take from the haves and give to the have nots by means of 'redistribution of wealth'.
Your candidate wishes to depend on government to expand present 'social programs' to help him redistribute this wealth.

Your implication that our infrastructure is 'socialism' is weak. Capitalism, on the other hand, is what our economy is based on. Once you begin to abandon Capitalism, you slide right down into eventual communism. Surely, you can see this happening, today. But, then again, probably not.
You really need to read the health plan. It is about as far from a social program as can be. Really more like a really harsh dorm mother.

As for redistribute the wealth, the folks that will actually feel that "redistribution" are making $500,000 and up. The $250K-500K will feel it a bit but I don't think it will hurt. And since we tend to use accountants to deal with much of the tax dealings, I am betting it won't matter at all to many.

Much of the "redistribution" will consist of closing loopholes. That is not a bad thing. Having accounts in the Caymans or having Corporate Headquarters in a Burmuda Post Office Box to avoid taxes is not really the American Way [at least it didn't used to be].

Really READ the plans before jumping to these conclusions on Socialism. They are way off base. But they do make for cool Fear, Uncertainty and Dread. And that is what is important.

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post #129 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Having accounts in the Caymans or having Corporate Headquarters in a Burmuda Post Office Box to avoid taxes is not really the American Way [at least it didn't used to be].
True. Halliburton moving their corporate headquarters to Dubai is the American way now.

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post #130 of 162 (permalink) Old 10-16-2008, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
We do not live in a black and white world. There are plenty of variables to the solution between self-serving individualism and socialism.

I personally believe that we will not begin to grow again as a country until we move away from this Me, Me, Me attitude of "I got mine, you get yours". It is a self centered attitude that will not sustain a platform of growth for a wounded economy.

When you look at the times in this country or in others where an economy was bad, where extraordinary measure was required to move forward, the very first thing that happens is that everyone has to pull together. Without that unification, failure is guaranteed. The Great Depression, WW1 and Worldwide Flu Outbreak, WW2. All required EVERYONE to work together and co-contribute. All of those events took YEARS to work out of but the Country came out stronger for the process.

Turn that around and look at the effects of the self serving nature of the Me Generation and we have seen nothing but decline in nearly every facet of this Country. There is a direct correlation.

Socialism, NO. That is a Red Herring word to try and minimize an argument. But to realistically define FAIR SHARE and determine just what it means to address the needs of the COUNTRY. YES. That has to be done. And that is fair to everyone as everyone benefits.
Bear, that is simply a long Yes to my question.

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