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post #71 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 06:47 PM
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Hey Bear, are you taking the "WIDE" road to Lancaster? if so, there is no "Wide Road" to travel there?
I am sure that makes sense. Really.

I will be home tomorrow afternoon.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #72 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 06:58 PM
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And therein lies much of the problem with the Bible.

First, folks quote "the Word of God" then, when pressed, maybe it was some mistranslations and then there is the whole issue of what holybooks were included and which holy books were not included because they were not "singing from the same page of the hymnal". Then you add 2000 years of cross translations of translations [why translate the original ancient text when you can just translate Old Latin or Alemannic].

So the words that you have learned, and know well are really translations of translations of translations and a smidge of editing and creative writing throughout 20 centuries of that religion.

Between the folks who believe in blblical innerancy and those who simply take the KJV as "gospel", it is pretty hard to grasp how anyone can defend the words.

Now the broad stroke message, that is a different matter.
Good thing the broad message is the main thing that matters eh? God loved us, he sent his son, he died for our sins, confess this and allow him into your heart and you are saved from your sins and granted eternal life in heaven.

The rest is just their to give us some daily guides. The Bible is a roadmap. Some of the cities may be mispelled and perhaps a road is left off here and there, but you will still be able to get where you need to go.
post #73 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 07:08 PM
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Really man you could throw up these little "contradictions" all day. If you haven't read the whole story it's hard to understand every little line pulled out of it. God uses the simple things to confound the wise. (Meaning those who are wise in their own eyes.)
So much for the infallibility of the Bible. How's a poor soul to know what to believe, what with there being all these land mines to navigate?

Wait - don't tell me - pay a preacher a lot of money once a week to tell you what to think, and to answer all those pesky questions with platitudes conveniently impossible to prove or disprove.

Here's the problem with deeply religious souls - they take a hostile and defensive approach to what is, ultimately, only a matter of individual belief and faith.

The religious person is one who is singularly incapable of dealing with the following precepts:

1) Not everything you read in the Bible is accurate
2) Not everything you read in the Bible is true
3) The Bible you're spending time studying and memorizing isn't the same bible that existed as written.
4) The notion of the Bible as the word of God is a fallacy (because God is "perfect" so why would there be issues of continuity and confusion and contradiction?)
5) Other seemingly normal people will not always agree with you


Therefore, the deeply religious person is in a constant state of stress and aggravation. They are constantly trying to resolve that which they've been told to believe, with that which the have observed, and/or know to be true & false.

This is demonstrated outwardly by taking an argumentative, hostile approach toward people who are not devout Christians (and Robert, you're a very good man, and you cannot take offense to anything that follows - stop reading if you must).

It starts in a passive/aggressive manner. They'll do things like ask quietly what church you go to. That's like having a gun drawn to your head. Either you're like-minded and answer openly (heaven forbid your church doesn't meet with their approval), or you're a "poor confused soul" who needs to be saved. Don't want to be saved? Why not? What's wrong with you? You must think I'M some kind of idiot then? etc, etc, ad nauseam, until we're at war with one another.

What difference does it make what *I* believe?

What difference does it make what I think of what *you* believe?

These words should be emblazoned above every pulpit in the nation.

FAITH is a personal matter. If you have it, I've no quarrel with you. WHEN YOU TRY TO SPREAD IT, is when we're going to have problems. WHEN YOU RAIL AGAINST those who point out the obvious fallacy that is religion, you EMBOLDEN and EMPOWER them and their arguments.

The sooner people can learn to separate FAITH from RELIGION, the happier everyone in the world will be.
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post #74 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 07:10 PM
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Good thing the broad message is the main thing that matters eh? God loved us, he sent his son, he died for our sins, confess this and allow him into your heart and you are saved from your sins and granted eternal life in heaven.
Not if you've blasphemed, ever.

Ever taken the Lord's name in vain? Ever said "god dammit" even once before you were saved? Because that's an unforgivable sin.
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post #75 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 07:13 PM
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^ Oh, and not if you don't walk the walk either.


Salvation Lost
Salvation Lost ?

An area of contention among Christians is, if Salvation, once granted, can be lost. One group supports the “Once saved; always saved (OSAS)” school of thought; while, the other says that Salvation can be lost through sin (OSOL). Both sides have a large following; however, large followings do not necessarily mean sound Scriptural doctrine. The underlying doctrinal difference between these groups is that one believes in Salvation through the Grace of God; while the other believes in Salvation through works.

Another difference is that those, believing that salvation is secure accept the Bible as it is written; while those claiming that you can lose salvation interject human reasoning into Scripture. Which is correct? Is there a middle ground between the two? Let’s delve in to Holy Scripture to see what it says on the subject.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
(John 6:37-39)

"And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand."
(John 10:28-29)

The Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, amplifies this last statement.

"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
(Romans 8:38-39)

In John 6 & 10, Jesus says He will not cast out anyone who believes in Him: and, that no one is able to remove a believer from Him. He also states that those believing in Him will never perish. You’ll notice that there are no qualifiers in Jesus’ statements. So, if you believe Jesus’ word then, "Once saved; always saved", is what He is saying here.

Those who claim that one can lose their salvation, point to verses such as, "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."
(Matthew 12:31-32)

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death."
(1 John 5: 16-17)

These verses would seem to contradict what Jesus said in John 6 & 10. Do we have a Lord and Saviour who makes contradictory statements, or remembers to add qualifiers in a later statement? I know that we don’t! So, why the difference? Consider what Eaton’s Bible dictionary has to say about the use of the word ‘blasphemy’ in this verse, 'Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is regarded by some as a continued and obstinate rejection of the gospel, and hence is an unpardonable sin, simply because as long as a sinner remains in unbelief he excludes himself from pardon.' The majority view however, is that 'Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit' means attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the deceiver or his agents. For a Christian, who has the in-dwelling Holy Spirit, to do such a thing is, I believe, impossible. Therefore verses such as the above two, provide no basis to believe that salvation can be lost.

Believing that one can lose their salvation infers that:
- - Jesus has failed in the commission He accepted from the Father; ("I should lose nothing")
- - That He is makes mis-statements (“I will not cast out” & "will never perish.")
- - We have a Creator, who knowing in advance that we are, and will be, sinners, gives us a gift that is dependent upon not sinning.

Additionally, if salvation can be lost, then it is not gift of “Grace (Mercy)” freely given by God; but, something we must earn or work to keep, which is totally contrary to God’s Word.

It is for these reasons that I believe, the Bible teaches,true Salvation, once received can not be lost. You will note that I said ‘true Salvation’. We have those who proclaim, 'I believe in God, so I’m going to Heaven'.

James 2:19 has this to say,

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!"


We have those who pay lip service, saying, 'Yes, I’ve believe in Jesus as My Lord and Savior, so I’m going to Heaven'. Yet, they are unproductive. They sit, and vegetate.

James 2:20 & 26 has this to say,

"But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

There are also those who feel that because they say they believe in Jesus Christ that nothing else is required. They continue on in the same old lifestyle believing that they now have a free ticket to Heaven. Jesus has this to say,

"Repent!"


Repentance embodies a change and a striving to do better.

No change - No striving = No repentance = No salvation..

Last edited by Qubes; 10-07-2008 at 07:15 PM.
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post #76 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 07:24 PM
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Wow Q, that's pretty deep. Your GOP roots?

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post #77 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 07:36 PM
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So much for the infallibility of the Bible. How's a poor soul to know what to believe, what with there being all these land mines to navigate?

Wait - don't tell me - pay a preacher a lot of money once a week to tell you what to think, and to answer all those pesky questions with platitudes conveniently impossible to prove or disprove.

Here's the problem with deeply religious souls - they take a hostile and defensive approach to what is, ultimately, only a matter of individual belief and faith.

The religious person is one who is singularly incapable of dealing with the following precepts:

1) Not everything you read in the Bible is accurate
2) Not everything you read in the Bible is true
3) The Bible you're spending time studying and memorizing isn't the same bible that existed as written.
4) The notion of the Bible as the word of God is a fallacy (because God is "perfect" so why would there be issues of continuity and confusion and contradiction?)
5) Other seemingly normal people will not always agree with you


Therefore, the deeply religious person is in a constant state of stress and aggravation. They are constantly trying to resolve that which they've been told to believe, with that which the have observed, and/or know to be true & false.

This is demonstrated outwardly by taking an argumentative, hostile approach toward people who are not devout Christians (and Robert, you're a very good man, and you cannot take offense to anything that follows - stop reading if you must).

It starts in a passive/aggressive manner. They'll do things like ask quietly what church you go to. That's like having a gun drawn to your head. Either you're like-minded and answer openly (heaven forbid your church doesn't meet with their approval), or you're a "poor confused soul" who needs to be saved. Don't want to be saved? Why not? What's wrong with you? You must think I'M some kind of idiot then? etc, etc, ad nauseam, until we're at war with one another.

What difference does it make what *I* believe?

What difference does it make what I think of what *you* believe?

These words should be emblazoned above every pulpit in the nation.

FAITH is a personal matter. If you have it, I've no quarrel with you. WHEN YOU TRY TO SPREAD IT, is when we're going to have problems. WHEN YOU RAIL AGAINST those who point out the obvious fallacy that is religion, you EMBOLDEN and EMPOWER them and their arguments.

The sooner people can learn to separate FAITH from RELIGION, the happier everyone in the world will be.
I don't know where you are coming from with this one, but I get the feeling you have been jaded by some "Christians".

I for one hate modern organized religion. I also read the Bible and study it to show myself approved. I don't let a preacher tell me what to believe. Preacher's today are not true Preacher's in the biblical sense. They are merely people trying to make a living and running a social club.

Preaching the gospel should only entail going out and telling the lost souls how to be saved. Enlightening them to the option. I have no clue why these people want to Preach to congregations full of people who already know and believe the word of God every week? Wasting their time much?

I am a firm believer against money as tithes. When the Bible spoke about tithes it meant bringing surplus together to have it ready in a time of famine.

I agree that faith and religion are far removed from one another. I can religiously brush my teeth everyday. Most people's concept of God has about the same amount of faith involved as oral hygiene.

Taking the Lord's name in vain isn't an unforgiveable sin. I said it before the only one is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This has many interpretations, but I have always seen it as pretending to be under the influence of the holy spirit (speaking in tongues etc) and (prophelying).

As for the "landmines" in the Bible. They do not exist if you read and study the word for yourself. These landmines are created by people pulling random lines out of the Bible and trying to make something from nothing. This is similar to the way many preachers try to piece together a message that encourages the congregation to give them 10% of their money every week.
post #78 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 08:26 PM
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I don't know where you are coming from with this one, but I get the feeling you have been jaded by some "Christians".

I for one hate modern organized religion. I also read the Bible and study it to show myself approved. I don't let a preacher tell me what to believe. Preacher's today are not true Preacher's in the biblical sense. They are merely people trying to make a living and running a social club.

Preaching the gospel should only entail going out and telling the lost souls how to be saved. Enlightening them to the option. I have no clue why these people want to Preach to congregations full of people who already know and believe the word of God every week? Wasting their time much?

I am a firm believer against money as tithes. When the Bible spoke about tithes it meant bringing surplus together to have it ready in a time of famine.

I agree that faith and religion are far removed from one another. I can religiously brush my teeth everyday. Most people's concept of God has about the same amount of faith involved as oral hygiene.

Taking the Lord's name in vain isn't an unforgiveable sin. I said it before the only one is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This has many interpretations, but I have always seen it as pretending to be under the influence of the holy spirit (speaking in tongues etc) and (prophelying).

As for the "landmines" in the Bible. They do not exist if you read and study the word for yourself. These landmines are created by people pulling random lines out of the Bible and trying to make something from nothing. This is similar to the way many preachers try to piece together a message that encourages the congregation to give them 10% of their money every week.
Wait a minute; the concept of the Holy Trinity is that the Holy Spirit, God, and Christ, are all the same thing in different forms. Ergo, blasphemy against one is blasphemy against all of them. Even by the part of scripture I quoted earlier, Jesus himself said he and his father are "one".

Unsurprisingly, like many religious nuts, you leave yourself a convenient interpretation of "the word" so as to avoid the very real psychological pain that results from one's uncertainty as to what matters - the letter, or the spirit, of the 'law'. Which, incidentally, amounts to stories we've been told, which were laid out by some people (sycophants, really) 2,000 years ago, who are only posthumously famous for their speculation and parroting (which Constantine turned into the most famous and popular religion in history and which may or may not, strictly speaking, be truthful or accurate).

Believe in God, or some other diety - I do - just leave the Bible out of it. You might as well worship a flying spaghetti monster.

Last edited by Qubes; 10-07-2008 at 08:29 PM.
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post #79 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 08:27 PM
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Wow Q, that's pretty deep. Your GOP roots?
One must gird their loins to live beneath the buckle of the bible belt.
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post #80 of 156 (permalink) Old 10-07-2008, 09:27 PM
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Again no contradiction. The holy trinity consists of Three who are 1. The father is of course the greatest of the three. The son the lesser. The holy spirit was the comforter who came after Jesus left. All of them have always existed. In Genesis who do you think God was talking to when he said "let US make man in OUR image?"
Satan.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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