Republicans have finally sold out every last one of their principles - Mercedes-Benz Forum
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#1 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 10:34 AM
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Republicans have finally sold out every last one of their principles

My personal feeling is the so-called Rescue Plan is really a rescue of the existing power structure. The Great Depression, while awful, was beneficial in that it ended the era of the Robber Baron and anti-unionism that was enforced by private corporate armies with machine guns, and brought forth the modern 20th Century State that was able to defeat Fascism and Communism. My belief is that we are at a parallel point in our history, and that the vested interests in the current power structure are essentially rescuing what has become an outdated power structure. I would like to see the markets take their course, even at the price of a Second Great Depression and the loss of our status as the world's top economic Superpower to the Chinese. It would result in a re-regulated economic system streamlined for the 21st Century instead of the stupid Cowboy Pawn Shop Capitalist system it has become, and it would end our incredible murderous criminal meddling in affairs of other states.

But where are the Republicans? This bail out is obviously unconstitutional. Article 1 Sec 8, which specifies the power of Congress, state that public money can be spent by Congress in two broad universes: the defense of the state or for the general welfare of the populace. Be honest, do you see any way that their plan satisfies this clause? Only through pretzel logic. To be honest, I would expect this of the Democrats, but watching the Republicans support and defend this plan is viscerally disturbing - it is their core value that financial effort should either be awarded or punished depending on the market. Now, simply to maintain their places in the current Corporate Capitalist State, they are selling out to what I think is blatantly unconstitutional - this "Rescue Plan" should only be enacted as the constitution requires: by Constitutional Amendment, with the consent of 2/3s of the Congress and 3/4's of the states.

The Republican Party is now destroyed I think. They are really two factions, what I call the Old Fiscal Constitutionalists and the Anti-Constitutionalists. The Anti-Constitutionalists are the confused Glenn Beck faction that is constantly screaming something is "against the Constitution" when it is not, and the real fact is they have no use for the ideas in the COTUS at all. The COTUS specifies that no law regarding religion be passed by Congress, yet the Congress has in the past made "pledges" mandatory in the public schools that include religious chants, which the Anti-constitutionalist's loudly support as they demand even further violation of the 1st Amendment by demanding that Creationism be taught in the public schools, all the while confusingly claiming they want strict constructionalism of the COTUS.

Their anti-Constitutionalism is seen everywhere: they are against homosexuals having equal rights with heterosexuals, even tho the 14th Amendment states we should all be treated equally before the law. They demand The State enforce abortion laws, in violation of the 13th Amendment's prohibition against voluntary servitude and the 14th Amendment's guarantee that a person is in charge of his or her own destiny, not The State. They support the Bush Survelliance State, even tho the 4th Amendment prohibits all police actions against the populace without either probable cause or a warrant. They hate the income tax, even tho it is in the COTUS, and in a thread here, we now have one of the Beckbots claiming that providing funds to the National Institute of Health is somehow unconstitutional, even in the face of the obvious statement in Article 1:8 that that is precisely the kind of thing the Congress is set to do.

In all of this I see the destruction of the Republican Party. The Old Fiscal Constitutionalists are totally defeated within their party - their last hurrah is McCain, who has failed them miserably. The only thing that matters to them is their jobs. I am sad, as a Democrat, I often supported them when they were the voice of reason and restraint as the country went thru the excesses of the sixties. I am truly saddened they have been replaced by Anti-constitutionalist buffoons.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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#2 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 11:16 AM
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How entertaining, FTL, to see you blame the Republicans for not stopping the bailout when for the past year you have posted nothing but hateful material designed to weaken the same party you now blame for being weak. This bailout is Democrat driven and is only being toned down and mellowed out by house Republicans. If the Dems had their way on Thursday, it would already have been a done deal--just to keep McCain out of the mix.

Charter member of the Vast Rightwing Conspiracy and proud of it.

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#3 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
My personal feeling is the so-called Rescue Plan is really a rescue of the existing power structure. The Great Depression, while awful, was beneficial in that it ended the era of the Robber Baron and anti-unionism that was enforced by private corporate armies with machine guns, and brought forth the modern 20th Century State that was able to defeat Fascism and Communism. My belief is that we are at a parallel point in our history, and that the vested interests in the current power structure are essentially rescuing what has become an outdated power structure. I would like to see the markets take their course, even at the price of a Second Great Depression and the loss of our status as the world's top economic Superpower to the Chinese. It would result in a re-regulated economic system streamlined for the 21st Century instead of the stupid Cowboy Pawn Shop Capitalist system it has become, and it would end our incredible murderous criminal meddling in affairs of other states.

But where are the Republicans? This bail out is obviously unconstitutional. Article 1 Sec 8, which specifies the power of Congress, state that public money can be spent by Congress in two broad universes: the defense of the state or for the general welfare of the populace. Be honest, do you see any way that their plan satisfies this clause? Only through pretzel logic. To be honest, I would expect this of the Democrats, but watching the Republicans support and defend this plan is viscerally disturbing - it is their core value that financial effort should either be awarded or punished depending on the market. Now, simply to maintain their places in the current Corporate Capitalist State, they are selling out to what I think is blatantly unconstitutional - this "Rescue Plan" should only be enacted as the constitution requires: by Constitutional Amendment, with the consent of 2/3s of the Congress and 3/4's of the states.

The Republican Party is now destroyed I think. They are really two factions, what I call the Old Fiscal Constitutionalists and the Anti-Constitutionalists. The Anti-Constitutionalists are the confused Glenn Beck faction that is constantly screaming something is "against the Constitution" when it is not, and the real fact is they have no use for the ideas in the COTUS at all. The COTUS specifies that no law regarding religion be passed by Congress, yet the Congress has in the past made "pledges" mandatory in the public schools that include religious chants, which the Anti-constitutionalist's loudly support as they demand even further violation of the 1st Amendment by demanding that Creationism be taught in the public schools, all the while confusingly claiming they want strict constructionalism of the COTUS.

Their anti-Constitutionalism is seen everywhere: they are against homosexuals having equal rights with heterosexuals, even tho the 14th Amendment states we should all be treated equally before the law. They demand The State enforce abortion laws, in violation of the 13th Amendment's prohibition against voluntary servitude and the 14th Amendment's guarantee that a person is in charge of his or her own destiny, not The State. They support the Bush Survelliance State, even tho the 4th Amendment prohibits all police actions against the populace without either probable cause or a warrant. They hate the income tax, even tho it is in the COTUS, and in a thread here, we now have one of the Beckbots claiming that providing funds to the National Institute of Health is somehow unconstitutional, even in the face of the obvious statement in Article 1:8 that that is precisely the kind of thing the Congress is set to do.

In all of this I see the destruction of the Republican Party. The Old Fiscal Constitutionalists are totally defeated within their party - their last hurrah is McCain, who has failed them miserably. The only thing that matters to them is their jobs. I am sad, as a Democrat, I often supported them when they were the voice of reason and restraint as the country went thru the excesses of the sixties. I am truly saddened they have been replaced by Anti-constitutionalist buffoons.
Finally FTL and I agree on something. Yes there are 2 factions and you correctly Identify them as being Constitutionalist and Anti Constitutionalist. Although I would like to make a few points.

First FTL you are wrong about the 1st Amendment. It does not say no law regarding religion shall be passed. It says no law regarding the ESTABLISHMENT of religion shall be passed. That means no law saying that the government has its own religion. The "Iron Curtain" that is to divide the government and religion continues to be used to promote ANTI-RELIGIOUS laws and agendas. A travesty to say the least. As for Creationism being taught I was always taught to take into account all the views of all the parties. What is wrong about educating children that there are different theories. Can anyone say that Evolution is a fact?

As for the 14th amendment and equal protection for Gays there is no argument that all people should be treated equally under the law. Please show me where they aren't and I probably would agree with you that the law should be changed.

As for your rants about voluntary servitude and how that relates to abortion you completely lost me. Please explain so that we can better understand.

Your statement that the 14th amendment says you are in charge of your own destiny not the state is also a conundrum. Would you please clarify that.

As for your rant on Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution would you please stop mischaracterising it? It says:

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

It says to promote science by securing the exclusive right to there work. It says nothing about raising funds to do research. Simple english man...seriously simple english.

And as far as mischaracterising Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, please show me where any of them have called for something that is anti constitutional. While you are at throw in examples of their racism and lies as well. I would like to see it!

FTL you really should read the constitution and study it a little bit more than what your middles school Social Studies teacher taught you.

Who's John Galt.

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#4 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
How entertaining, FTL, to see you blame the Republicans for not stopping the bailout when for the past year you have posted nothing but hateful material designed to weaken the same party you now blame for being weak. This bailout is Democrat driven and is only being toned down and mellowed out by house Republicans. If the Dems had their way on Thursday, it would already have been a done deal--just to keep McCain out of the mix.
People are not lockstep Beckbot Coulter Clones like yourself.

Tell me, since Paulson, the Treasury Secretary, initiated this entire episode, how is it "Democratic driven"? And is HOW IS A COMPLETE SELL-OUT TO STATE CONTROL OF BUSINESS "TONING THINGS DOWN"?

No, it's a complete sell out, the completion of a process that began with Bush, with the cheering on of the invasion of another nation on false pretenses, selling out years of opposing "nation building", years of supporting fiscal responsibility, years of opposing the commitment of troops where their were no clear definitions of victory, but most incredible of all, years of opposing flat-out Communism. Toning things down? I think all but you Coulter-Push-Buttons would agree a better descriptive phrase is "selling things out, like our principles for instance, so we can stay in office."

If you ask anyone here that has posted with me over the years, they will tell you that I never had a problem with the Old Fiscal Constitutional wing, in fact, I actually voted for Reagan once. But the idea that I am somehow responsible for the strength or weakness of the current Republican Anti-constitutionalist party is utterly ludicrous, that I, even tho I despise the war mongering kid-killing shitbags, would have any power at all in their situation is a real knee slapper. That belongs to the Republican Party, now misnamed as it's core beliefs are contradicted and twisted by Thinking By Talk Show Sound Bite, - really The Anti-Constitutional Party, that exists now. The one I had great respect for, the voice of fiscal responsibility, and the voice of American Individualism has been silenced. How sad. The only hope now is that millions of Republicans will vote for the Libertarian ticket and leave the Anti-Constitutional Party to the Beck Fascists.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 10-01-2008 at 07:58 AM.
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#5 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Finally FTL and I agree on something. Yes there are 2 factions and you correctly Identify them as being Constitutionalist and Anti Constitutionalist. Although I would like to make a few points.

First FTL you are wrong about the 1st Amendment. It does not say no law regarding religion shall be passed. It says no law regarding the ESTABLISHMENT of religion shall be passed. That means no law saying that the government has its own religion. The "Iron Curtain" that is to divide the government and religion continues to be used to promote ANTI-RELIGIOUS laws and agendas. A travesty to say the least. As for Creationism being taught I was always taught to take into account all the views of all the parties. What is wrong about educating children that there are different theories. Can anyone say that Evolution is a fact?
You didn't do well in science, did you? Let's look at your position. Take all views into account of all the parties. Cool. If we are going to add in Creationism, which is singular to a subset of NeoConservative Christianity [hint, there is no suggestion of dinosaurs in the Bible] then we also need to teach Hindi thought of reincarnation, Scientology theory of alien intervention, Buddhist philosophy of simply being. There are at least five other competing views.

Interestingly only one is supported by scientific study and analysis.

What is wrong with teaching kids that there are different theories? Well, first, kids don't have the intellectual maturity do discern the difference between SCIENCE and RELIGION at some ages. Further, by suggesting they are equal theories, you teach a child that their decision making skills should not be influenced by evidence or logic.

When you teach these separate thoughts as equal theories you suspend the teaching of Critical Thinking skills because if you apply Critical Thinking Skills to Creationism it sinks like a rock.
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#6 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TNTRower View Post
Finally FTL and I agree on something. Yes there are 2 factions and you correctly Identify them as being Constitutionalist and Anti Constitutionalist. Although I would like to make a few points.

First FTL you are wrong about the 1st Amendment. It does not say no law regarding religion shall be passed. It says no law regarding the ESTABLISHMENT of religion shall be passed. That means no law saying that the government has its own religion. The "Iron Curtain" that is to divide the government and religion continues to be used to promote ANTI-RELIGIOUS laws and agendas. A travesty to say the least. As for Creationism being taught I was always taught to take into account all the views of all the parties. What is wrong about educating children that there are different theories. Can anyone say that Evolution is a fact?

As for the 14th amendment and equal protection for Gays there is no argument that all people should be treated equally under the law. Please show me where they aren't and I probably would agree with you that the law should be changed.

As for your rants about voluntary servitude and how that relates to abortion you completely lost me. Please explain so that we can better understand.

Your statement that the 14th amendment says you are in charge of your own destiny not the state is also a conundrum. Would you please clarify that.

As for your rant on Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution would you please stop mischaracterising it? It says:

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

It says to promote science by securing the exclusive right to there work. It says nothing about raising funds to do research. Simple english man...seriously simple english.

And as far as mischaracterising Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity, please show me where any of them have called for something that is anti constitutional. While you are at throw in examples of their racism and lies as well. I would like to see it!

FTL you really should read the constitution and study it a little bit more than what your middles school Social Studies teacher taught you.
Do you always use "spray and pray" posting as you wander through a topic?

As a quick skim, you might want to re-listen to Rush's "comedy" bits on Obama. Or maybe in red herring discussions on Muslims, South side of Chicago and family.

And yes, I have to listen to Rush and Hannity for class.
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#7 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
How entertaining, FTL, to see you blame the Republicans for not stopping the bailout when for the past year you have posted nothing but hateful material designed to weaken the same party you now blame for being weak. This bailout is Democrat driven and is only being toned down and mellowed out by house Republicans. If the Dems had their way on Thursday, it would already have been a done deal--just to keep McCain out of the mix.
"Had their way" means what ?
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#8 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 01:50 PM
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"Had their way" means what ?
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#9 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
My personal feeling is the so-called Rescue Plan is really a rescue of the existing power structure. The Great Depression, while awful, was beneficial in that it ended the era of the Robber Baron and anti-unionism that was enforced by private corporate armies with machine guns, and brought forth the modern 20th Century State that was able to defeat Fascism and Communism. My belief is that we are at a parallel point in our history, and that the vested interests in the current power structure are essentially rescuing what has become an outdated power structure. I would like to see the markets take their course, even at the price of a Second Great Depression and the loss of our status as the world's top economic Superpower to the Chinese. It would result in a re-regulated economic system streamlined for the 21st Century instead of the stupid Cowboy Pawn Shop Capitalist system it has become, and it would end our incredible murderous criminal meddling in affairs of other states.

But where are the Republicans? This bail out is obviously unconstitutional. Article 1 Sec 8, which specifies the power of Congress, state that public money can be spent by Congress in two broad universes: the defense of the state or for the general welfare of the populace. Be honest, do you see any way that their plan satisfies this clause? Only through pretzel logic. To be honest, I would expect this of the Democrats, but watching the Republicans support and defend this plan is viscerally disturbing - it is their core value that financial effort should either be awarded or punished depending on the market. Now, simply to maintain their places in the current Corporate Capitalist State, they are selling out to what I think is blatantly unconstitutional - this "Rescue Plan" should only be enacted as the constitution requires: by Constitutional Amendment, with the consent of 2/3s of the Congress and 3/4's of the states.

The Republican Party is now destroyed I think. They are really two factions, what I call the Old Fiscal Constitutionalists and the Anti-Constitutionalists. The Anti-Constitutionalists are the confused Glenn Beck faction that is constantly screaming something is "against the Constitution" when it is not, and the real fact is they have no use for the ideas in the COTUS at all. The COTUS specifies that no law regarding religion be passed by Congress, yet the Congress has in the past made "pledges" mandatory in the public schools that include religious chants, which the Anti-constitutionalist's loudly support as they demand even further violation of the 1st Amendment by demanding that Creationism be taught in the public schools, all the while confusingly claiming they want strict constructionalism of the COTUS.

Their anti-Constitutionalism is seen everywhere: they are against homosexuals having equal rights with heterosexuals, even tho the 14th Amendment states we should all be treated equally before the law. They demand The State enforce abortion laws, in violation of the 13th Amendment's prohibition against voluntary servitude and the 14th Amendment's guarantee that a person is in charge of his or her own destiny, not The State. They support the Bush Survelliance State, even tho the 4th Amendment prohibits all police actions against the populace without either probable cause or a warrant. They hate the income tax, even tho it is in the COTUS, and in a thread here, we now have one of the Beckbots claiming that providing funds to the National Institute of Health is somehow unconstitutional, even in the face of the obvious statement in Article 1:8 that that is precisely the kind of thing the Congress is set to do.

In all of this I see the destruction of the Republican Party. The Old Fiscal Constitutionalists are totally defeated within their party - their last hurrah is McCain, who has failed them miserably. The only thing that matters to them is their jobs. I am sad, as a Democrat, I often supported them when they were the voice of reason and restraint as the country went thru the excesses of the sixties. I am truly saddened they have been replaced by Anti-constitutionalist buffoons.
For The General Welfare Of The Country » Tenth Amendment Center

That being said/pasted, I agree that this most recent example violates the COTUS as well. And, I trust, being the non-partisan that you are, you are including the other party who will overwhelmingly support this bailout as well (and are clearly able to stop it) in your diatribe of disgust. I am.

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#10 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 03:25 PM
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A good summary from LA Times (of all places) of why ...

Quote:
Lending freezes as anxiety grips capital markets - Los Angeles Times
Lending freezes as anxiety grips capital markets
Credit is so tight, routine transactions have been hobbled. With interbank lending stifled, regulators are worried.
By Tom Petruno and Walter Hamilton, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
11:15 PM PDT, September 26, 2008
As Congress wrestles with a $700-billion plan to buy up bad mortgages, many on Wall Street say the situation in the banking system has become desperate.

Credit -- the lifeblood of the economy -- has simply stopped flowing in many parts of the financial system over the last two weeks.
...
Bert Boeckmann, who owns Galpin Motors in North Hills, said the credit crunch had made it tougher for all but "prime" borrowers to get car loans.

As for mortgages, Wells Fargo & Co. this week was charging 9.25% for "jumbo" 30-year loans -- those larger than about $730,000.
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