McCain On Technology - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:25 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprof View Post
Well they still argue it's about copyright rather than promoting science and the arts.
That particular clause is, but he originally dared us to "show us where science is mentioned in the constitution". It is, so I did.

His whole philosophy is built on sand. The military spending clause coupled with the general welfare clause in the beginning of Article 1 Sec.8 pretty much give Congress a huge universe to spend our cash, and the courts in over 200 years have never held otherwise. It was intended to be that way.

The Founders intention was to have a system where a nutty, mob driven House passed willy-nilly spending bills that would bankrupt the government, like all of them have done in every democracy since Rome, but Jefferson and Co intended for the Senate to then wisely pull out the really ridiculous crap, and for the President to veto anything else. I'm sure we can all say it hasn't worked out 100% as intended, but it works exactly that way a lot of times.

But the idea that Congress is somehow constitutionally limited in how it spends money is ridiculous, the beginning and end of Article 1 sec 8 give it such sweeping spending powers and such broad definitions, they can fund whatever they wish, as long as it either supports the military or supports the general welfare. Public Health has been considered a part of that since the founding of the Republic - read the section above about the history of the NIH, the supposedly wasteful government, unconstitutional agency according to The Glenn Beck Chorus here a BWOT, in fact started in the 1780's for christ sake, to protect the public health. The idea any kind of support for science that furthers public health is "unconstitutional" is just plain stupid, it's been done starting when the men who began this country were running it.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 09-27-2008 at 06:50 PM.
FeelTheLove is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:26 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by the clk man View Post
I think TNTRower is a former Banned poster. His writings sound very familiar.
I too keep having deja vu. But it is coming in triplets recently.

And after reading that last sentence I do realize that sounds like a party on Saturday night.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #63 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:31 PM
~BANNED~
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 2002 clk320
Location: Lancaster, Kentucky
Posts: 8,498
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I knew it, TNTRower sounds a little Jayhawkish to me.
the clk man is offline  
post #64 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:37 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfreeman View Post
We've been through this before . . . the other bolded statement does not give free reign to do anything the fed wants. There are other governments within our boundaries.

And, ultimately, the fed promotes art and science through copyrights and patents according to the COTUS. But, I guess all those agencies cited are "good" unconstitutional programs and there's no other way to get them done. Maybe we should send more money to DC for the lobbyists, er, government to control.
Again, I will ask you, what has the Congress done that has not either furthered the national defense or promoted the general welfare when it promotes science? I would say there is rather good proof that it has. For god sakes, simple US agriculture became a planetary force because of government USDA agents spreading around little test tube kits to test the local soils, the history of both military and civilian scientific advancements thanks to the American taxpayer are stunning, monumental achievements of mankind:

Military funding of science - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When Government Was the Solution - Campaigning for History Blog - NYTimes.com

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #65 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:39 PM
slightly creased
 
420 SE's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2005
Vehicle: 1988 420 SE; 2015 ML 400
Location: Gold Coast, QLD, AUS & Doha, Qatar
Posts: 16,177
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
So in other words, Congress can fund science, but only to promote war. But the clause says in black and white, war, or "the general welfare" does it not? Tell me how funding the invention of penicillin was not something that promoted the general welfare?
While I agree with the point you are trying to make, I think you will find penicillin was a Scot and Australian invention - never funded by the yanks...

Ross

OzBenz

beware of fundamentalists

420 SE is offline  
post #66 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:50 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 420 SE View Post
While I agree with the point you are trying to make, I think you will find penicillin was a Scot and Australian invention - never funded by the yanks...
Maybe YOUR penicillin.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #67 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-27-2008, 06:55 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I too keep having deja vu. But it is coming in triplets recently.

And after reading that last sentence I do realize that sounds like a party on Saturday night.
I think it's the actual "destroyer" guy, now dropping his silly pretense he was a Democrat when he was trying the Limbaugh "operation chaos" schtick. He's just back in his true form, a guy who gets his ideas poured into his head by high school grads Limabuagh and Beck, modern Carnie barkers who talk shit to take these guys for chumps. The only thing these talkies really do is sell outrage. Everything is supposed to be outrageous, we are all supposed to be living in a world that is totally run by unseen mysterious hands. In the end, it is a belief system that is not really conservative, it is essentially old-fashioned black shirt fascism.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #68 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 04:08 PM
Moderately subtle
 
edfreeman's Avatar
 
Date registered: Dec 2003
Vehicle: 94 E500, 97 500SL
Location: Soddy Daisy, TN
Posts: 8,518
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Send a message via AIM to edfreeman
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Now I didn't say it wasn't valid. Just that is was a good starting point. If the founders had wanted it to be CANON and not dynamic they would have simply written the applicable laws they thought necessary and not had representatives. Problem would be solved. All the laws in a nice little rule book. But that is not what they did. They gave the Congress the ability to THINK and then ACT. Sometimes Congress rushes through that first part.

Tell me, why, during the last 230 years of Supreme Courts have there been NO rulings that tell Congress that they don't have the right to make laws, laws that are not enumerated in the Constitution? One would think that the Third of our Government that interprets laws and their constitutionality would, during that time have noticed that there was an inconsistency if one indeed existed.

SCOTUS is well aware of its limitations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
That is certainly part of it and I certainly did not mean to convey that I thought it was all of the COTUS supporting public support of the sciences, but tell me, do you think flush toilets and sanitary plumbing have any military benefit? I mean, because of your interpretation of that clause, can you show me where the exclusions are? How about penicillin or quinine, you think it is a waste of Congressional money to fund these things, or would you rather see troops die in the field of malaria and septis because the Congress was some how prohibited from funding their discovery by funding of university? The military spending and the general welfare clause cover pretty much whatever Congress wants it to cover, and both clauses give it free reign to support the sciences.

he real fact is the US Government, despite all the bitching you hear, pretty much works. We the People get the Congress we vote into office, and we delegate them the power to spend our money, and they do. If we don't like it, we should vote them out. We don't. Tough shit for us for the most part, but for much of it we deserve to give them a pat on the back.
For The General Welfare Of The Country » Tenth Amendment Center

I realize what we do today, I realize that some of the unconstitutional programs and agencies have positive outcomes, but that is beside the point. I can list as many programs and spending that have not been positive or that equate, effectively, to pissing our money away. Also, to claim that if the fed didn't do it, it wouldn't be done is false.

Many of FDR's New Deal programs were being challenged to the SCOTUS and were about to be squashed. He threatened to stack that court, somehow, with additional justices to make a majority favorable to his programs and they caved (ever heard of a switch in time saves nine? Judiciary Reorganization Bill of 1937 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). That SCOTUS, prior to the threat, was correct.

edfreeman is offline  
post #69 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
Surely A Large Human
 
Qubes's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2006
Vehicle: '08 C219
Location: Between Earth and Mars
Posts: 34,252
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
(Thread Starter)
Can't wait until IPv6 rolls, where everyone gets their own permanent IP address from their ISP's. It'll make identity questions so much easier to answer.
Qubes is offline  
post #70 of 87 (permalink) Old 09-28-2008, 05:35 PM
It Is What It Is, Dude
 
isthisdave's Avatar
 
Date registered: Mar 2006
Vehicle: 1978 107.024 RIP
Location: InTransition
Posts: 21,646
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
^ Isn't that unconstitutional?
isthisdave is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    So what happened to this technology? Nutz 4 Benz Off-Topic 3 12-17-2007 02:51 PM
    Just another reason I appreciate old technology frans-c W123 E,CE,D,CD,TD,TE Class 8 08-01-2007 11:35 PM
    Just another reason I appreciate old technology frans-c General Mercedes-Benz 7 05-27-2007 07:44 PM
    Technology E280 Elegance W210 E-Class 2 07-03-2005 05:23 AM
    help...what technology is this ? snickers_3rd General Mercedes-Benz 4 03-06-2004 04:19 AM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome