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post #41 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 11:45 AM
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A view from a different perspective.

Jay and I have been playing this game for well over three years. We have met and had very good dinner conversation for nearly six hours last October. We also exchange email at times on off OT subjects.

While I do tend to disagree with much of what Jay posts since he so firmly supports the failed Bush policies at EVERY possible turn, I don't know that I believe that he intentionally plays agent provocateur ALL the time [like Rush]. I think that just comes as a result of years of support for Bush and Republican politics and a distillation of thought that has polarized to a very Black and White reality. The personification of "You are either with us or against us".

To the deeper question of the debate, and the amount of discourse that is churned, I think it is very healthy. The debates here, and on some other forums have started elevating thought back to levels they were in the early part of this country. Fundamental conversations of core beliefs. We have people on all sides that are able to contribute well developed thought on their position. Unfortunately we also have a few who simply like to criticize the thoughts of others and not really contribute original thought or opinion. These snipers pollute the debate but, in an open forum are part of the mix.

I have copied some of the better conversations on to doc files from this forum to share with others. Some are brilliant. They cover such a vast spectrum of information and diverse opinion and, while everyone gives everyone else's opinion grief in the process, any honest opinion that is backed by fact or belief is tended to be treated with respect. Only those regurgitations of political dogma bereft of personal thought tend to not garner respect.


Back to Jay, really, I think some of his posting is just a reaction to the additional freedom he has gotten now that his handler in the Witless Protection Program has given him Internet Access.

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post #42 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Stewart was attacking Carlson on a personal level. Carlson was nothing more than an actor, employed to play a part for a television show. Sorry, but it was beyond silly. It was akin to a member of an audience rushing up on stage to attack the villain of a play in a theater. Further, the "superfluousness of Carlson" is utterly appropriate for an actor playing a part.
No, Carlson is considered a "political analyst", not just an actor. And Stewart did not go after him until Carlson started discussing questions from a comedy show in comparison to a news/commentary show. At that point Stewart realized that Carlson had no clue of the difference or the point and was just deflecting and obfuscating. Stewart found the soft spot and went for it.

But to use your analogy, one of the other "actors", the good guy, went in to vanquish the villain dolt.

Stewart explained this sometime later but I can't find the clip. It might be on my server which is not here.

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post #43 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 12:01 PM
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You're dead wrong. Tucker Carlson was not the producer of the show, nor was he given free rein in regard to its content. The show Crossfire had a specific format, and that format was to be as confrontational as possible. Toward that end, the producers hired two individuals to play the parts of combatants. Stewart essentially ambushed the show, and attacked one of the individuals as if he were something other than an employee playing the part he had been hired to portray, Carlson's silly analogy notwithstanding.

Stewart's beef was with CNN and the producers of the show, not Carlson. By attacking Carlson's dress and intelligence, he aptly demonstrated his own very real shortcomings. He may as well have attacked a cameraman for soiling his TV screen with an image he didn't like.

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post #44 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
A view from a different perspective.

Jay and I have been playing this game for well over three years. We have met and had very good dinner conversation for nearly six hours last October. We also exchange email at times on off OT subjects.

While I do tend to disagree with much of what Jay posts since he so firmly supports the failed Bush policies at EVERY possible turn, I don't know that I believe that he intentionally plays agent provocateur ALL the time [like Rush]. I think that just comes as a result of years of support for Bush and Republican politics and a distillation of thought that has polarized to a very Black and White reality. The personification of "You are either with us or against us".

To the deeper question of the debate, and the amount of discourse that is churned, I think it is very healthy. The debates here, and on some other forums have started elevating thought back to levels they were in the early part of this country. Fundamental conversations of core beliefs. We have people on all sides that are able to contribute well developed thought on their position. Unfortunately we also have a few who simply like to criticize the thoughts of others and not really contribute original thought or opinion. These snipers pollute the debate but, in an open forum are part of the mix.

I have copied some of the better conversations on to doc files from this forum to share with others. Some are brilliant. They cover such a vast spectrum of information and diverse opinion and, while everyone gives everyone else's opinion grief in the process, any honest opinion that is backed by fact or belief is tended to be treated with respect. Only those regurgitations of political dogma bereft of personal thought tend to not garner respect.


Back to Jay, really, I think some of his posting is just a reaction to the additional freedom he has gotten now that his handler in the Witless Protection Program has given him Internet Access.
I'm glad you chimed in, because nobody would mistake you as being full of shit - your persona here is what you would get in real life.

(Maybe that's why Jay likes you - WYSIWYG.)

So which is true; that what we see online at BWOT is Jay screwing around with people minus non-verbal cues that would ordinarily reveal whether or not he was serious? Or is it that he really is this demented old fart who wanders by to shit in everyone's cereal every day?
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post #45 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
You're dead wrong. Tucker Carlson was not the producer of the show, nor was he given free rein in regard to its content. The show Crossfire had a specific format, and that format was to be as confrontational as possible. Toward that end, the producers hired two individuals to play the parts of combatants. Stewart essentially ambushed the show, and attacked one of the individuals as if he were something other than an employee playing the part he had been hired to portray, Carlson's silly analogy notwithstanding.

Stewart's beef was with CNN and the producers of the show, not Carlson. By attacking Carlson's dress and intelligence, he aptly demonstrated his own very real shortcomings. He may as well have attacked a cameraman for soiling his TV screen with an image he didn't like.
If Crossfire was looking for "individuals" to provide the confrontation, they could have hired actors. Instead they hired Political Analysts. And by hiring seasoned political analysts they were, in deed providing a show that had two anchors that did guide the show within the confines of the premise.

If Carlson were only an actor I would agree with your premise completely. But he was not. And Stewart's issues with folks like Carlson were more than just Crossfire, as he clearly stated. Carlson had, on nearly every medium in which he worked, produced work that was of a similar level of antagonistic discourse. Nothing wrong with that style but he didn't like it when he was called out for it.

And you are dead correct that it got too personal. But, conflict was the premise of the show.

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post #46 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 01:32 PM
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And you are dead correct that it got too personal. But, conflict was the premise of the show.
Political conflict. When he crossed that line, Stewart was behaving inappropriately and embarrassed himself badly, IMO.

I would hardly describe Mr. Carlson as a "seasoned political analyst" before CNN hired him. AFAIK he was a young lightweight trying to break into the biz by doing fluff pieces for magazines. I don't know Tucker Carlson, but I'd bet good money that when he walked off that set, a different personality with different values emerged. He never struck me as a guy who took himself very seriously. OTOH, he did seem to take his job seriously.

Carlson was one of the most generic, even-handed pundits I had ever seen on his show on MSNBC, offering up opinions and generally respecting those who opposed them, although he would occasionally have guests on for the express purpose of savaging them. I'll assume that he wielded far greater editorial control over that show than he did over Crossfire, on which he was little more than an actor playing a part.

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post #47 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Political conflict. When he crossed that line, Stewart was behaving inappropriately and embarrassed himself badly, IMO.

I would hardly describe Mr. Carlson as a "seasoned political analyst" before CNN hired him. AFAIK he was a young lightweight trying to break into the biz by doing fluff pieces for magazines. I don't know Tucker Carlson, but I'd bet good money that when he walked off that set, a different personality with different values emerged. He never struck me as a guy who took himself very seriously. OTOH, he did seem to take his job seriously.

Carlson was one of the most generic, even-handed pundits I had ever seen on his show on MSNBC, offering up opinions and generally respecting those who opposed them, although he would occasionally have guests on for the express purpose of savaging them. I'll assume that he wielded far greater editorial control over that show than he did over Crossfire, on which he was little more than an actor playing a part.
I doubt Carlson would agree with you that he was no more than an actor, and I never heard him introduced as such, or the show introduced with "starring Tucker Carlson" as the intro line. And the actor "analogy" doesn't really work for me. If you are an actor who, in every role you have, sucks cock, why aren't you just a cocksucker - perhaps a good cocksucker, which would explain why you get paid to suck cock?

While the encounter might have suited you better if it had skipped the personal part, one of Stewart's points was being personally responsible for what you do and how you do it. It gets personal - in Carlson's "role" he did little more than instigate conflict to entertain people with shallow bullshit while he made real issues seem less important as he "acted" out his role of being involved in the news and issues of the day that affected the country. In that role he passed out more intellectual dope to the audience, dumbing them and the nation down while, according to Stewart, he had the opportunity to be informative and relevant.

Which gets us back to the cocksucker analogy. Stewart was being nice in that interview. I believe he really would have liked to call him a cocksucker. Jim
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post #48 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:07 PM
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I might start with "I used to think you were pretty sharp", but I'll do my best to rise above that level of personal insult. Do you have some proof that Tucker Carlson owned CNN or produced Crossfire, thus was responsible for its content? 'Cause seriously, I thought he was an employee, and as such, assumed the role that his boss(es) assigned him. If he were on his own, he must at the very least have been producing the show, or perhaps holding some dirt on one of the producers to such an extent that he/she was afraid to rein him in. Alternatively, perhaps you can provide some evidence of a pattern of this inappropriate behavior you allege during the '90s before CNN hired him, because he demonstrated very little antagonism on his MSNBC show, and was generally quite respectful toward his guests, with whom he frequently disagreed.

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post #49 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:14 PM
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Damn, You guys are Smart.
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post #50 of 94 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 04:49 PM
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I do all my best thinking in the shower for some reason. Probably because my left brain is turned off, and I'm not trying. It just flows.
That's not called thinking, it's called peeing.

I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.
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