Is Anyone Watching this Palin Disaster Unfold? What was McCain Thinking? - Page 20 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #191 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:25 PM
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Arrgh. I hate to disagree with you but NO violent criminal has EVER gone on to commit more crimes after being executed.
I'm with you, except you can argue that they don't commit more crimes after being locked away for life either. I'm happy to concede this point, and it's an interesting topic for debate, but has no place in a discussion about abortion. They're different.
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post #192 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:27 PM
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Iraq is also irrelevant, probably

I agree with McBear that lifetime incarceration is probably worse than death. So how do we justify it if death isn't justified?

Besides, people escape, are paroled, kill in prison, etc etc.

And it's very expensive.
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post #193 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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Unnecessarily argumentative. I'm not associated with a "movement". I'm not arguing this on the basis of morality. I'm not affiliated with religious entities - I loathe them, actually.

The term "pro life" does not fit what I'm talking about, and that is, the unresolved contradictions between what people try to make Roe v. Wade do (like a sledge-o-matic for any debate regarding abortion), and modernity.

If we're going to ignore or forget what we've learned over the past 30 years, than Roe v. Wade represents the state of the art for this debate. We can do better.

In fact, isn't it you who said society is judged by how we treat the weakest among us?
Actually "Society is only as good as it treats those among us that have the least" but close enough.

Why don't the folks who are prolife [whether the term or the philosophy] want to address the moral dilemma that is caused by 1) wanting to save "precious life" and 2) wanting to kill for revenge. I realize it makes your argument for anti abortion much easier to ignore the moral dilemma but it exists nonetheless. It does not go away simply because you want to separate the arguments. That's the funny thing about morals.

You and I have had this discussion several times before. I have read hundreds of pages of your posts. I have also had very public discussions with Flip Benham when he lived in my neighborhood. If you don't think you are ProLife, you really need to reevaluate your understanding of the position. You are.

As an aside, I nearly caused Flip to have a meltdown after one of our discussions. He is no longer Pro Death Penalty. Flip went to Asbury [near my house] for his DD and, until recently had a house in the 'hood. He is one of the evangelists that I have talked to on a regular basis. I have known him since 1986.

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post #194 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:29 PM
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@Marsden

Given how flimsy DNA evidence is turning out to be, again, you have to err on the side of life. Maybe the evidence was wrong, and it takes 30 years to find out. As a society, we should rightly feel pretty bad for sending someone to death that was innocent. You simply can't let that happen.

There's a place for the death penalty, just like there's a place for abortion. It's when those boundaries get stretched, I think, that people start finding things to argue about.
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post #195 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:32 PM
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I have read hundreds of pages of your posts.
OMG I STAND ASIDE!
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post #196 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:33 PM
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As a society, we should rightly feel pretty bad for sending someone to death that was innocent. You simply can't let that happen.
Turns out Iraq is relevant to this conversation after all.
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post #197 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:34 PM
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Ah...so now the "who are we to judge" turns into "everyone else is doing it".

Sorry baby Timmy. Who am I to judge? You're inconvenient, darnit. And hey, everyone else is doing this. beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

Gone are the right fighters.


Or were you not talking about abortion still? Because I'm talking about abortion.
I'm talking about the connected morals. You seem to be trying to distance yourself from that issue.

As for the "everyone else is doing it". That is simply to show that the Death Penalty is not a proven solution in any of the first world countries. Of course we could still be different, again.

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post #198 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:35 PM
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Actually "Society is only as good as it treats those among us that have the least" but close enough.

Why don't the folks who are prolife [whether the term or the philosophy] want to address the moral dilemma that is caused by 1) wanting to save "precious life" and 2) wanting to kill for revenge. I realize it makes your argument for anti abortion much easier to ignore the moral dilemma but it exists nonetheless. It does not go away simply because you want to separate the arguments. That's the funny thing about morals.

You and I have had this discussion several times before. I have read hundreds of pages of your posts. I have also had very public discussions with Flip Benham when he lived in my neighborhood. If you don't think you are ProLife, you really need to reevaluate your understanding of the position. You are.

As an aside, I nearly caused Flip to have a meltdown after one of our discussions. He is no longer Pro Death Penalty. Flip went to Asbury [near my house] for his DD and, until recently had a house in the 'hood. He is one of the evangelists that I have talked to on a regular basis. I have known him since 1986.
For what seems like the 90th time in this thread alone, I'm willing to concede that the death penalty may not be an effective deterrent to crime. Despite the fact I find it justifiable in the right situations, it won't hurt my feelings if we never execute another human being as a penalty for crime. Fine. Twist all you want, the death penalty/abortion discussions are separate in nature.

You may recall somewhere in the hundreds of pages of my posts (sorry for that), my proclamation that we need to eliminate the concept of the "front lines" in conflicts. Or, even more fundamentally, we don't need to have an armed military presence anywhere but home. But not for reasons of morality, because everyone's morals are different and subjective; rather, for reasons of practicality, consistency of policy, etc.
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post #199 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:37 PM
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I'm talking about the connected morals. You seem to be trying to distance yourself from that issue.

As for the "everyone else is doing it". That is simply to show that the Death Penalty is not a proven solution in any of the first world countries. Of course we could still be different, again.
I'm chuckling to myself....sorry if separating abortion from the death penalty, etc. seems odd to you guys somehow. I see them as completely different in nature. To make an argument for/against any of them on the basis of morals is, I think, setting one's self up for failure.
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post #200 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:40 PM
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Arrgh. I hate to disagree with you but NO violent criminal has EVER gone on to commit more crimes after being executed.



Excepting, of course, for the minor matter that Iraq had never attacked us in any way, shape or form.
I think the revenge part of Iraq had to do with 1) finishing DS1's job. And 2) that Saddam Assassination plot on Poppy.

True, no violent criminal has killed again after execution. I also keep wondering about those death row folks that got released on DNA evidence, well, actually the death row folks who died PRIOR to DNA type evidence. If we are going to take over the deity roll of smiting, I would really like the deity ability of absolute knowledge prior to making that call. Close is not enough.

Note for the Abortion argument, that is why I am not a believer in third trimester abortion [along with the vast majority of Pro Choice folks]

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