Is Anyone Watching this Palin Disaster Unfold? What was McCain Thinking? - Page 19 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #181 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
I disagree. The label was adopted as a means of demonizing their opponents. If you are an opponent of Pro-Life, you are either Pro-Death or Anti-Life, pick your poison. It is a moronic title assumed for the same dishonest reasons that the Bush admin selected the name Patriot Act.
I am not asserting the label has no "spin," only at what the subject of the spin is.

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post #182 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:00 PM
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This is an easy problem to solve, Z. The time to worry about having a child is way before conception. There's some simple stuff that can be done to avoid the decision altogether, that have nothing to do with infanticide. Are you seriously going to sit here and tell us that once impregnated, the ONLY option a woman has who is unable to care for a child is abortion?
Sometimes that answer is yes. Sometimes the woman is just a child herself, sometimes she is mentally unable to cope, sometimes she just doesn't have the financial wherewithal. And sometimes the stigma of pregnancy is too much to bear. The reasons against having a child are as many as for having a child. Not everyone believes that procreation is a wonderful and cherished thing. To many, it is simply biology in action.

In a perfect world there would be solutions. This is not a perfect world.

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post #183 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:01 PM
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Dude, what did I say?

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Perhaps the death penalty is antiquated and no longer effective as a disincentive toward the worst types of crimes imaginable. Maybe something new is needed. But evil actions need to have severe consequences. The liberty and life of every law abiding person should be of the utmost importance and protected at all costs.
I'm not getting into an argument about the death penalty as the justification FOR abortion, because they aren't the same goddamned thing. If the death penalty doesn't work, fine, let's change it. It doesn't change the fact of the matter at all; that allowing abortion means donning fancy Jayhawk-esque goggles to block out all of the precedents and conflicting laws designed to protect children from harm.
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post #184 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
I disagree. The label was adopted as a means of demonizing their opponents. If you are an opponent of Pro-Life, you are either Pro-Death or Anti-Life, pick your poison. It is a moronic title assumed for the same dishonest reasons that the Bush admin selected the name Patriot Act.
I will agree that the terms are now stupid platitudes.
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post #185 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:03 PM
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It's a moving target...the earliest point at which prematurely delivered children stand a decent chance of survival is probably around 6-7 months, if not earlier. If you can remove a fetus from a womb and sustain it's life without causing permanent physical or mental impairment or even discomfort, sounds to me it's viable.

So I'll assume you believe in the "magic portal" version of the pro-choice squad, which is to say something mystical and inexplicable happens when the unborn child moves past that 1/4" or so of mom's tissue that separates it from the rest of the outside world, and until that happens, all bets are off.

Might take that up with any of the governors in states who think differently vis-a-vis prosecution of individuals who commit violent crimes against pregnant women - they make a pretty distinct accommodation for that case, not by accident.

My point is that where doubt exists, you have to give the fetus the benefit. You have to assume it would continue to gestate and grow to term and be delivered happy and healthy. Because there are several dozen billion instances of that happening throughout history - the vast, vast majority of pregnancies are carried to term without incident.
Using your argument above, are you OK with abortion at six weeks? 10 weeks? 20 weeks? None fit the viability window EVER.

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post #186 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:08 PM
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Sometimes that answer is yes. Sometimes the woman is just a child herself, sometimes she is mentally unable to cope, sometimes she just doesn't have the financial wherewithal. And sometimes the stigma of pregnancy is too much to bear. The reasons against having a child are as many as for having a child. Not everyone believes that procreation is a wonderful and cherished thing. To many, it is simply biology in action.

In a perfect world there would be solutions. This is not a perfect world.
Who's arguing any of that? Certainly not me. What I'm saying is that this is a decision that NECESSARILY must be made before intercourse. Like, way way way before. You wouldn't burn down a home or total a car you couldn't pay for anymore...you'd try to sell them first, or work with your lenders to figure something out.

So too there are options for mothers who cannot - for whatever reason - be mothers. Lots of them. There's a reason why this isn't okay after the magical process of childbirth (negroes, please...). And I'm here to tell you that no matter what that very confused supreme court had to say, it's not okay before, either. It's the most egregious form of child abuse imaginable.
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post #187 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:12 PM
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I see. So you're in favor of anarchy, which is to say, abolition of the rule of law.
Um, no. I find that LIFE is a very suitable substitute to anarchy. Seems much of the rest of the world already figured this concept out and worked out the snags. No anarchy involved.

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post #188 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:13 PM
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Using your argument above, are you OK with abortion at six weeks? 10 weeks? 20 weeks? None fit the viability window EVER.
As I've said, I'm not really okay with it at all as a matter of convenience. Ever.

I think I've been consistent in saying (not just here, but previously) that in cases of uncertainty, the fetus wins the benefit of the doubt. Plainly there remains a lot of doubt regarding fetal viability - I'd toss out for starters, the earliest we've ever seen a fetus respond to sensory stimulation, and the earliest we've ever seen a fetus born prematurely without severe developmental deficiencies or pain resulting therefrom.

But those are variables, and they aren't questions which can be answered with certainty from a scientific standpoint yet. So you have to err on the side of caution - e.g., don't kill the baby. It's really not that complicated. The controversy is that people would actually fight for someone's right to kill a baby by very carefully crafting a set of circumstances in which it's OK, spun as a matter of individual liberty. Please....
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post #189 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:16 PM
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Um, no. I find that LIFE is a very suitable substitute to anarchy. Seems much of the rest of the world already figured this concept out and worked out the snags. No anarchy involved.
Ah...so now the "who are we to judge" turns into "everyone else is doing it".

Sorry baby Timmy. Who am I to judge? You're inconvenient, darnit. And hey, everyone else is doing this. beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

Gone are the right fighters.


Or were you not talking about abortion still? Because I'm talking about abortion.

Last edited by Qubes; 09-01-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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post #190 of 423 (permalink) Old 09-01-2008, 01:24 PM
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NO STUDY IN THE WORLD has shown that the Death Penalty deters violent crime.
Arrgh. I hate to disagree with you but NO violent criminal has EVER gone on to commit more crimes after being executed.

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Death Penalty is REVENGE. Teach your kids about revenge sometime. Wait, that is what got us into Iraq.
Excepting, of course, for the minor matter that Iraq had never attacked us in any way, shape or form.
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