Is Anyone Watching this Palin Disaster Unfold? What was McCain Thinking? - Page 11 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #101 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:16 PM
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Harriet Miers, paging Harriet Miers...
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post #102 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:24 PM
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Do Libertarians believe in anarchy? Not sure how you separate a respect for human rights from morality; the two are inextricably intertwined.

Roe v. Wade is a one-trick pony - it addresses only one "use case" if you will, for the relationship between a mother and a fetus. In my opinion, it is obviated by the majority of states which have laws explicitly protecting them from death in utero. It's antiquated, and one could say that continuing to use it as the basis for allowing abortions to take place is the inconvenient truth a careless nation doesn't want to confront.

It's very easy to make this argument on the grounds of morality, but in my opinion, it's easier to make this argument on the grounds of Roe v. Wade as 1) being a judgement, not a law...and 2) being in direct conflict with differently-phrased laws protecting the unborn.

The argument for pro-choice says "We don't know exactly when a fetus is viable". Well then, conservatively, you opt in favor of life. The benefit of the doubt has to go to the fetus, doesn't it?

It remains deeply troubling to me that so many otherwise decent people are so willing to take the easy way out when thinking about this issue. As if to say "I'd rather let a baby die than to be rude", or "Nobody kills my unborn fetus but me." Lunacy.
I want to add to your post a few items.

Obama gets a 100% rating from NARAL and Planned parenthood. That doesn't come from making below pay-grade decisions. (BTW-that phrase is a favorite of Biden).

BHO has a damning history in the Illinois legislature of voting against a law that would protect and provide medical care to babies who survive mid-term abortion. Because this was based on a real event, Obama objected because it would muddy the definition of "viable" which he thought would jeopardize Roe v. Wade at the federal level. He is left open to charges of supporting infanticide as a result. And, yes, people have survived a botched mid-term abortion; one of them testified before Congress regarding the same kind of law.

Those of you who believe that Roe is the law of the land,-- and it's settled, have not been keeping up. District attorneys have been chipping away at the definition of when life begins everytime they consider a pregnant woman killed by gunshot. And one young woman in Colorado has been successful at placing a constitutional amendment on the ballot for this coming election which defines a fetus as a person--the really direct approach.

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post #103 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:26 PM
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^ It's a good thing Obama can't sit and write laws all by himself. I need him to get us the fuck out of Iraq. Then he can sit and spin so far as I care.
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post #104 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:27 PM
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pffft, damned nannystate ninnies
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post #105 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:28 PM
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A real stretch that you attempt to draw a logical correlation between being pro-life and an advocate of the death penalty. How about some reverse logic for you. A pro-choicer that is against the death penalty. That's right. Compassion for the guilty but none for the innocent. If that's what liberalism is about, I want no part of it.
First, pro choice does not assume either position. It posits CHOICE. But, in reality I disagree with pro abortion/anti death penalty just as well as that hard stance is just as compromised.

The key to choice is simply that. Choice. I know Pro Choice folks who are adamant anti abortion but pro choice. They understand the concept that it is the woman's body and her rights to decide.

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post #106 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:28 PM
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pffft, damned nannystate ninnies


Murderer.
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post #107 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:35 PM
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You make the assumption that folks come to pro choice easy. That is just not the case.

I have always been mystified that the question comes to viability yet when push come to shove the answer from prolife is conception. There is so much that is incorrect with that logic that it befuddles me. So, using your example in paragraph four. If you know when a fetus is NOT viable, your argument against the pro choice folks is fully nullified.

Add in the hypocrisy of many pro-lifers who have no problem with the death penalty or starting or instigating war and the concept of the pro-life advocate become very diluted.

I have a very good friend who I respect greatly that is pro-life. He is also strongly against the death penalty and strongly against war and conflict of all types. HE is truly PRO LIFE. Most of the rest of the group are a hodge podge of compromise.
Pro Life is shorthand for allowing babies to be born at full term and nothing else. To try to implicate the morality of those who don't support abortion because they may have what you think are apparently opposing views when it comes to capital punishment is a cheap shot.

But, I can't avoid using pro choice as an example. Those who savor giving the abortion option to pregnant women are equally unlikely to give a choice on paying union dues or secret union elections, funding alternative educational delivery systems, letting us continue to use incandescent light bulbs, or letting us drive Hummers.

You can assume you know when viability is reached, but you really don't until the abortion is complete. There no medical test in utero.

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post #108 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:42 PM
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Pro Life is shorthand for allowing babies to be born at full term and nothing else. To try to implicate the morality of those who don't support abortion because they may have what you think are apparently opposing views when it comes to capital punishment is a cheap shot.

But, I can't avoid using pro choice as an example. Those who savor giving the abortion option to pregnant women are equally unlikely to give a choice on paying union dues or secret union elections, funding alternative educational delivery systems, letting us continue to use incandescent light bulbs, or letting us drive Hummers.

You can assume you know when viability is reached, but you really don't until the abortion is complete. There no medical test in utero.
No bigger a cheap shot than use of the term Pro Life in the first place (right up there with Patriot Act). Isn't Anti-Abortion a little more honest, a little less moronic, and a little less polarizing?

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post #109 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:43 PM
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But, I can't avoid using pro choice as an example. Those who savor giving the abortion option to pregnant women are equally unlikely to give a choice on paying union dues or secret union elections, funding alternative educational delivery systems, letting us continue to use incandescent light bulbs, or letting us drive Hummers.
Wow, so this really is just political rhetoric and not much else, huh. L-L-L-Lame
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post #110 of 423 (permalink) Old 08-31-2008, 09:45 PM
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I make no assumptions about how easy or difficult it is for people to decide to have an abortion;
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It remains deeply troubling to me that so many otherwise decent people are so willing to take the easy way out when thinking about this issue.
???


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I only know that I find it's legality fallacious when confronted with laws that, among other things, consider killing a pregnant woman to be double-homicide - as just one example.

I'm not claiming to be pro-life; I think that term oversimplifies a very complicated issue. An orderly society implements consequences and punishments for those who violate the life and liberty of others...I have no issues with the death penalty in this regard, and linking that to a desire to repeal abortion laws is unreasonable. One involves an eye-for-an-eye punishment for only the most egregious crimes; the other involves terminating a life out of convenience - and it's the convenience aspect that is at issue, not this mother's life is endangered or rape/incest bullshit.

Plainly, it would help everyone to know what "tests" a fetus must pass to be considered viable, and it should fail all of them prior to a doctor being allowed to perform an abortion. Until such time as those are defined, again, the only rational and humane course is to assume the fetus will be viable. And thusly, terminating it is a form of homicide or manslaughter or whatever you want to call it. There is premeditation involved, so, you know, murder isn't an entirely inappropriate term.
We use science to determine much information. We extrapolate base on collected evidence over long periods of time. Whether you are talking about Global Climate Change or Fetus viability or Horsepower per liter, a sufficient sampling of data usually provides the correct thresholds for everything from melting tables for glaciers to viability to Xhp@nRPM.

So the data that you ask for has been assembled, studied and answers have been gleaned. Much like GCC, there are usually three interpretations. Those who have an agenda on one side look at and present the numbers one way, those who have an agenda on the other side look at and present the numbers the other way and the third group which actually develops the data simply lays out the numbers and draws more objective conclusions.

DA's, as you suggest tend to add murder charges when a fetus is killed. Of course they tend to pile on as many charges as possible, no matter WHAT the crime is if they think they can get away with it. It is their job.

I like how you twisted the Pro life and Death Penalty around to make eye for an eye OK and a CHOICE of society but not abortion of an unviable fetus. That is just about as double standard as possible. It is a very reasonable comparison. You are either pro life or not. Sometimes is not an option.

You can't just argue the side and then try to skate saying you are "not claiming to be pro-life". You are or you are not.

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