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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:40 PM
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You know me better than that. I was referring specifically to fiscal conservatism. Social conservatism is a form of socialism rather than conservatism. Social liberal/fiscal conservative = libertarian (i.e. edfreeman, GermanStar, jdc1244).
The problem with Social Liberal/fiscal conservative = libertarian is that social liberal part. That requires the belief that it is important to help those who can least help themselves.

Some twenty years ago [I was trying to figure out exactly when] I was in a discussion that regarding much of this very subject. I made a comment off the top of my head that pretty much summarized my feelings.

About an hour later, as the night was winding down a friend who is just now retiring as a Federal District judge handed me a placemat with my comment on it. He told me to say that as often and as loud as possible.

I have posted it here before. It pretty much summarizes the Social Liberal part of Social Liberal/Fiscal Conservative philosophy.

"Society is only as good as it treats those among us that have the least

That is the principle that guides me and guides the majority of the SL/FC group which makes up the majority of the modern Democratic Party.

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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:43 PM
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You're a strong advocate of fiscal responsibility, but you are essentially a big government nanny-state guy. When you find yourself agreeing with Ed more, you'll be on the path toward conservatism (never gonna happen ).
Show where I am Big Government. Or more specifically Big Government SPENDING.

As for thinking like more like Ed, you are right, because I find there is just a tremendous amount of stuff that has to be done in a modern world that just was not thought about or imagined at the end of the 18th Century.

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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:45 PM
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Hmm a world that saw Isreal become a nation?
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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:52 PM
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I fail to see why you, mcbear, seek GS's approval. I am more fiscally conservative than most "Republicans" and quite a few "Libertarians" because I don't see how you pay the debt we have accumulated without taking in more money. All the fantasy bullshit about spending less is honorable rhetoric, but until the cost is imposed via taxes the temptation to spend money you don't have is just more than humans can resist. Once the debt is being paid down, you may see reduced spending and some changes in spending priorities for those programs that can be considered "discretionary." But claiming a conservative high ground by opposing taxes while we are smothered by the mound of debt we have accumulated is little more than burying your head in the sand. Lower spending won't happen until more taxes are collected. Just like alternate energy is not going to happen until gas prices get high enough to cripple the country, there will be no spending changes until the debt burden become painful. And, those who have benefited from the debt should be the ones paying the taxes.

Jim
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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:54 PM
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Regarding fiscal conservatism, there are several ways to get to an end result. That is where the difference lays.

Many people think that jobs programs provide training and get people who are minimally skilled to improve their lives. <-- BIG GOVERNMENT That in turn improves their income which improves the tax revenue flow. Spend some to make more.

Some folks think that having a healthy population provides an overall cost savings to private enterprise and boosts work output. <-- BIG GOVERNMENT Less time is taken off, less monies spent at state hospitals and less overall infrastructure overhead while also keeping people working.

Again, spend some to make more.

The end game is the same. Reduce the size of Government, the size of Government outlays, the dependence on Government and in the long run a smaller percentage of income going to run the Country. The means to get there differ greatly.

Some think a rising tide raises all boats. That tide is raised when the most possible people are healthy, educated, working and contributing. Some just require help to get there. <-- BIG GOVERNMENT An unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless.
As I said, you are a strong advocate of fiscal responsibility (and I believe you are confusing that with fiscal conservatism). And that's a good thing. You are also very comfortable with your convictions. Conservatives promote free enterprise and want central government to provide a strong national defense and some infrastructure, then move out of the way. It's a very different philosophy than yours.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:55 PM
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Well stated. Jim.
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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:56 PM
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I fail to see why you, mcbear, seek GS's approval. I am more fiscally conservative than most "Republicans" and quite a few "Libertarians" because I don't see how you pay the debt we have accumulated without taking in more money. All the fantasy bullshit about spending less is honorable rhetoric, but until the cost is imposed via taxes the temptation to spend money you don't have is just more than humans can resist. Once the debt is being paid down, you may see reduced spending and some changes in spending priorities for those programs that can be considered "discretionary." But claiming a conservative high ground by opposing taxes while we are smothered by the mound of debt we have accumulated is little more than burying your head in the sand. Lower spending won't happen until more taxes are collected. Just like alternate energy is not going to happen until gas prices get high enough to cripple the country, there will be no spending changes until the debt burden become painful. And, those who have benefited from the debt should be the ones paying the taxes.

Jim
No one is seeking my approval, I am not claiming any high ground, and I believe you are also confusing fiscal responsibility with conservatism.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
I fail to see why you, mcbear, seek GS's approval. I am more fiscally conservative than most "Republicans" and quite a few "Libertarians" because I don't see how you pay the debt we have accumulated without taking in more money. All the fantasy bullshit about spending less is honorable rhetoric, but until the cost is imposed via taxes the temptation to spend money you don't have is just more than humans can resist. Once the debt is being paid down, you may see reduced spending and some changes in spending priorities for those programs that can be considered "discretionary." But claiming a conservative high ground by opposing taxes while we are smothered by the mound of debt we have accumulated is little more than burying your head in the sand. Lower spending won't happen until more taxes are collected. Just like alternate energy is not going to happen until gas prices get high enough to cripple the country, there will be no spending changes until the debt burden become painful. And, those who have benefited from the debt should be the ones paying the taxes.

Jim
I don't seek GS's approval. I am just chatting.

We spend about 20% of ALL revenue taken in on DEBT SERVICE. That is just interest, much going to China, Japan, UAE and Saudi Arabia. That HAS to be reduced before any "let's cut taxes" BS can begin. It is like a family with credit card debt. You have to cut spending, pay debts and refocus before you can start a "reduced income - mom gets to quit her second job" routine.

That is why I have said all along, taxes need to go UP. They need to be fair to everyone [hurt everyone equally] and we have to get our financial house in order. Reagan, Bush1 and Bush1.1 all tried "tax cuts" to spur the economy. All they did was increase debt each time.

My thought on fiscal conservatism is very long view. We are going to have to start acting like adults at some point and be responsible. And responsible is paying down the debt and getting as many people working as possible.

McBear,
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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JimSmith View Post
I fail to see why you, mcbear, seek GS's approval. I am more fiscally conservative than most "Republicans" and quite a few "Libertarians" because I don't see how you pay the debt we have accumulated without taking in more money. All the fantasy bullshit about spending less is honorable rhetoric, but until the cost is imposed via taxes the temptation to spend money you don't have is just more than humans can resist. Once the debt is being paid down, you may see reduced spending and some changes in spending priorities for those programs that can be considered "discretionary." But claiming a conservative high ground by opposing taxes while we are smothered by the mound of debt we have accumulated is little more than burying your head in the sand. Lower spending won't happen until more taxes are collected. Just like alternate energy is not going to happen until gas prices get high enough to cripple the country, there will be no spending changes until the debt burden become painful. And, those who have benefited from the debt should be the ones paying the taxes.

Jim
So you think paying for some ass hole's debt is justified? I refuse to pay some dysfunctional numb nuts delirious dreams of grandeur. I don't care at this point whether it was greed or dream based. This is about money and I do not want to pay for this mistake. Take away benefits, take away hand outs, punish the ignorants for not paying attention and maybe just maybe they will learn something for a change. Nothing teaches better than failure.
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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 11:11 PM
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I don't seek GS's approval. I am just chatting.

We spend about 20% of ALL revenue taken in on DEBT SERVICE. That is just interest, much going to China, Japan, UAE and Saudi Arabia. That HAS to be reduced before any "let's cut taxes" BS can begin. It is like a family with credit card debt. You have to cut spending, pay debts and refocus before you can start a "reduced income - mom gets to quit her second job" routine.

That is why I have said all along, taxes need to go UP. They need to be fair to everyone [hurt everyone equally] and we have to get our financial house in order. Reagan, Bush1 and Bush1.1 all tried "tax cuts" to spur the economy. All they did was increase debt each time.

My thought on fiscal conservatism is very long view. We are going to have to start acting like adults at some point and be responsible. And responsible is paying down the debt and getting as many people working as possible.
We've discussed all this before (the thread a few weeks ago in which I attempted to explain how and why I believe adherence to libertarian principles provides our very best way out of this horrific mess). No need to rehash, we're just talking labels and semantics here.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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