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post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 07:39 PM
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While I agree with what you just said, I certainly hope you are not implying there are any democrats who fit the definition of 'conservative'.
Well, the new era Democrat, or as Jay would call us, the NeoLib has a philosophy that is considered Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. That helps explain how we, as a country were able to start actually paying down our debt in the 90's prior to Bushie's drunken spending spree.

And yes, it is possible for that philosophy to work without taxing the resources of either the government or the tax-paying citizens.

Oh, and Conservative also means NOT invading countries when diplomacy and negotiations can work, protecting the natural resources of our nation and providing a Foreign Policy that shows the world we are responsible adults that don't go off half-cocked.

Does that answer your question?

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post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 08:08 PM
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post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Well, the new era Democrat, or as Jay would call us, the NeoLib has a philosophy that is considered Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. That helps explain how we, as a country were able to start actually paying down our debt in the 90's prior to Bushie's drunken spending spree.

And yes, it is possible for that philosophy to work without taxing the resources of either the government or the tax-paying citizens.

Oh, and Conservative also means NOT invading countries when diplomacy and negotiations can work, protecting the natural resources of our nation and providing a Foreign Policy that shows the world we are responsible adults that don't go off half-cocked.

Does that answer your question?
No.

I will preface my statement with, I think you are a great guy. There's no doubt we could be friends. But, politically, we are on opposite ends. Surely you jest, in trying to pretend you are remotely conservative. While I recognize that you may have some conservative values, you have proven to be an advocate of big government solving problems when, in fact, the government has the worst track record in history when it comes to solving any kind of problem. You do not trust the private sector to do the right thing when it comes to healthcare, the environment and helping to solve social ills. You have repeatedly painted with a wide brush, that all corporations behave the way a few corrupt ones do. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Furthermore, you pretend that the record debt is all Bush's fault, the GOP's fault, when you fail to realize that every one of the 535 are equally to blame for that record debt. Money cannot be spent without approval of congress and the 2006 congress hasn't done jack to reign in this spending.

You also suggest 'preserving' natural resources. How about, 'locking up' as the proper word. If your way is to be had, we'll never become independent of foreign oil. If we work our way out of that dependence by exploring and drilling for new sources, conserving what we do use and investing in new energy alternatives, we can achieve that goal. But, if you leave out any one of those three, we will not be successful.

The foreign policy thing, I'll give you. We have suffered miserable failures at the hands of a so-called republican president at a cost of our world credibility.

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post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
No.

I will preface my statement with, I think you are a great guy. There's no doubt we could be friends. But, politically, we are on opposite ends. Surely you jest, in trying to pretend you are remotely conservative. While I recognize that you may have some conservative values, you have proven to be an advocate of big government solving problems when, in fact, the government has the worst track record in history when it comes to solving any kind of problem. You do not trust the private sector to do the right thing when it comes to healthcare, the environment and helping to solve social ills. You have repeatedly painted with a wide brush, that all corporations behave the way a few corrupt ones do. You can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Now, go back and see where I really have suggested that "Big Government" provide solutions. Using your three examples, I have ALWAYS maintained that Government's role is to push Private Enterprise to be required to provide ACCESS for health care.

In your second example, YES the government has to set guidelines for environmental quality. Otherwise we end up with more Flaming Cuyahogas.

Regarding social ills, yes, there are elements that are the responsibility of a government. Working to fix the problems make ALL of society better and that helps everyone, including taxpayers.

But none of that changes the Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative approach. It is possible to be both.

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Furthermore, you pretend that the record debt is all Bush's fault, the GOP's fault, when you fail to realize that every one of the 535 are equally to blame for that record debt. Money cannot be spent without approval of congress and the 2006 congress hasn't done jack to reign in this spending.
You might want to check your facts on this one. First, spending has been reduced with this 2006 Congress. Projections of debt are down from original expectations.

Now, it is not pretending to blame Bush and the All Republican Majority Congress for the Record Federal Debt. They had the votes to pass the bills. He had the VETO PEN to stop it but CHOSE to keep it in the drawer. Every one of the 535 are NOT responsible, just the ones that made up the majority required to pass the votes.

If you are going to look at fiscal numbers, look at them correctly, not trying to obfuscate responsibility for $5TRILLION in debt.

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You also suggest 'preserving' natural resources. How about, 'locking up' as the proper word. If your way is to be had, we'll never become independent of foreign oil. If we work our way out of that dependence by exploring and drilling for new sources, conserving what we do use and investing in new energy alternatives, we can achieve that goal. But, if you leave out any one of those three, we will not be successful.
If my way was to be had, we would ALREADY BE ENERGY INDEPENDENT. The problems with that have been taking the easy way out and short sighted thinking for too long. I fought this same argument in 1976. Reagan, Bush1 and Bush1.1 have kept it from happening.

And yes, we can be very successful with the oil supplies we have, the suppliers we have and the push to new technology. There is NOTHING that is going to be solved by Drilling new offshore that will provide any help for SEVEN YEARS. If it was important, WHY didn't Bushie and his Republican Congress address it in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 or 2006?

It is nothing more than a POLITICAL issue, not a technical or energy issue.

[quoteThe foreign policy thing, I'll give you. We have suffered miserable failures at the hands of a so-called republican president at a cost of our world credibility.[/QUOTE]I have watched Private Industry work its way around Healthcare, the environment and social ills. I don't trust them to fix the problems without a solid push or pull from government. It is not in their nature to do that. HMOs failed. They failed because profits came before care. Business has to make money. So the incentive to make it work was missing.

I have watched the Cumberland River turn solid black. It does it on a very regular basis. It does so every time the catch pond for coal scrubbing fills up. It is easier to accidentally back a bulldozer into the dam than it is to correctly dispose of the coal laced water. Nothing lives in that part of the river. Profit came before the environment. Regulators were sitting in their offices in DC instead of checking on mines and compliance.

I DO NOT TRUST private industry to take care of people's health, the environment or address social ills. I have watched, as an adult for 40 years. It has not happened yet, there is no incentive for it to change.

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post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 09:37 PM
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mcbear, you strike me as a solid, middle of the road Democrat. And while Democratic leadership has absolutely demonstrated far greater fiscal responsibility than that of the GOP of late, you and your Democratic brethren are a far cry from conservative. That's my take anyway...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:13 PM
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mcbear, you strike me as a solid, middle of the road Democrat. And while Democratic leadership has absolutely demonstrated far greater fiscal responsibility than that of the GOP of late, you and your Democratic brethren are a far cry from conservative. That's my take anyway...
I have NEVER said Democrats were conservative in the full Republican fashion.

What I said was "Well, the new era Democrat, or as Jay would call us, the NeoLib has a philosophy that is considered Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative"

Where the Democrats get into traditional Conservative issues are on things like reducing debt, keeping church and state separate, environmental issues [and yes, regulations to protect is conserving] and limiting military actions specifically to defense and UN activity. Those are all OLD Republican Conservative platform planks.

The Social Liberal/Fiscal Conservative just prioritizes differently to achieve positive results.

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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:14 PM
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You know me better than that. I was referring specifically to fiscal conservatism. Social conservatism is a form of socialism rather than conservatism. Social liberal/fiscal conservative = libertarian (i.e. edfreeman, GermanStar, jdc1244).

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:22 PM
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You know me better than that. I was referring specifically to fiscal conservatism.
Regarding fiscal conservatism, there are several ways to get to an end result. That is where the difference lays.

Many people think that jobs programs provide training and get people who are minimally skilled to improve their lives. That in turn improves their income which improves the tax revenue flow. Spend some to make more.

Some folks think that having a healthy population provides an overall cost savings to private enterprise and boosts work output. Less time is taken off, less monies spent at state hospitals and less overall infrastructure overhead while also keeping people working.

Again, spend some to make more.

The end game is the same. Reduce the size of Government, the size of Government outlays, the dependence on Government and in the long run a smaller percentage of income going to run the Country. The means to get there differ greatly.

Some think a rising tide raises all boats. That tide is raised when the most possible people are healthy, educated, working and contributing. Some just require help to get there. An unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless.

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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:26 PM
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You're a strong advocate of fiscal responsibility, but you are essentially a big government nanny-state guy. When you find yourself agreeing with Ed more, you'll be on the path toward conservatism (never gonna happen ).

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 08-28-2008, 10:27 PM
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Some one is picking a fight right here right now.
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