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post #71 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
^ Kinda like the way they did with the internet?
Kind of like every successful venture since the Middle Ages. It is why more humans live better and to a longer age now than any time in human history.

It sure as hell ain't governments. The history of governments is despotism and enslavement. Golden chains are still chains.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

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post #72 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:42 PM
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^ If you look at when they shift from benevolence to fascism, does it not match nearly exactly with the accumulation of immense and disproportionate wealth?

Maybe you have another way to address the latent hypocrisy of those who chant most loudly for free and open markets.
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post #73 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Kind of like every successful venture since the Middle Ages. It is why more humans live better and to a longer age now than any time in human history.

It sure as hell ain't governments. The history of governments is despotism and enslavement. Golden chains are still chains.

B
I get the "golden chains are still chains" line, but I am not sure it came out the way you intended.

One of those things that needs to be acknowledged is that people who are very good at making a profit are not always good at developing a long term strategy. In fact, I believe the present day board room is overwhelmed by blood sucking MBA's who want to get rich without investing any work or time at it, and they always accomplish this by shortening the time horizon for making a bonus. Which leads to incompetent strategists. Energy is not a quite the same as cheaper CDs or camcorders or cell phones with more glitzy features to distract you from the fact that cell phones in general in this country don't work worth a fuck, or automobiles. All those industries started here and moved elsewhere to make a quicker buck. That decision making model is entrenched in Wall Street and it is not, at face value, good enough to be trusted with the nation's long term energy strategy. I would rather trust it to a Space Race/Moon Race project run by the government than to Wall Street's GE's, ExxonMobil's, and other big dollar companies who will take it over if it is left to big business. It will then make money but I doubt very seriously that it will do much else. Jim
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post #74 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
^ If you look at when they shift from benevolence to fascism, does it not match nearly exactly with the accumulation of immense and disproportionate wealth?

Maybe you have another way to address the latent hypocrisy of those who chant most loudly for free and open markets.
In order to discuss this, if you think it worth pursuing, you'll have to define fascism for me on this website. I've seen it used on everything. Like a sort of Duct Tape for arguments.

"Hi, Billy Mays here! Can't get the knack of logical argument? Apply Fascism!"

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

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post #75 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:56 PM
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Well, the one I'm using generally goes like this:

"an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization."

Maybe "despotism" is a term you'd find more applicable...
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post #76 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 07:59 PM
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Well, the one I'm using generally goes like this:

"an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization."

Maybe "despotism" is a term you'd find more applicable...
Authoritarianism of any sort, including despotism, is the antithesis of free markets.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #77 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 08:54 PM
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Bullshit. What you intimate (in part) is another damned government interventionist policy to tell companies how they should allocate their investments and tell citizens what to do with their own money.

Just get the government out of the way and let the profit motive drive innovation.
Eh, Bot, I do have an basic distaste for governmental intervention, preferring the impartial referee role more. I am undecided, though, on whether this particular playing field is truly level, given the entrenchment of the current favorite energy sources and the non-competitive nature of their actions (certainly, OPEC is a trust). Do you think this field is level?

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post #78 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 09:10 PM
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Authoritarianism of any sort, including despotism, is the antithesis of free markets.

B
Yeah? Interesting how frequently the two end up connected. So which are you seeing in BushCo; benevolence, or despotism?
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post #79 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-04-2008, 10:16 PM
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Bot,

This concept that the government is ALWAYS bad and that they ALWAYS are malevolent to free market is just incorrect. As Q said earlier, and you blew off, the Internet is a perfect example of a government enterprise that has been in operation since 1958 building the very infrastructure you use to watch these pixels. Without the Billions of Government dollars they would either not exist or exist in a much different form.

Marc Andersen, who invented Netscape pretty much summed it up with this.
Quote:
I was an undergrad student, but I was also a staff member at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications, which is basically a federally funded research institute. When Al Gore says that he created the Internet, he means that he funded these four national supercomputing centers. Federal funding was critical. I tease my libertarian friends—they all think the Internet is the greatest thing. And I’m like, Yeah, thanks to government funding.
. This man is the consummate Free Market Entrepreneur. He drove the Dot.Com Boom of the 1990s. Yet he knows that it was government funding that made his free market ideas grow to fruition.

Now move to a more concrete example. From the Information Superhighway to the Eisenhower Interstate System. Government funded. Yet the amount of free market commerce that it has allowed to flourish is beyond counting.

It sounds good to say "stop government funding and let the people decide". Well, the people decided to let Congress determine how to spend their money. Ofttimes they do a shitty job. But when you want to go from NOLA to Seattle, it is amazing just how much federal spending you utilize each step of the way. Horseback and pack mule would be a real bitch.

You have roads to get you to the airport. Street lights to control traffic, Law Enforcement to insure traffic flow, an airport board that built an infrastructure for your car to drive on and park. An education system that ensures that you will be able to conduct most of your business in your native tongue. Government contracts for military planes helped McDonald Douglas and Boeing through hard times which insure you have a nice airplane. ATC is up and running to insure the odds that you hit another plane are slim and the system repeats when you land. Federal funding touched ALL that and a whole bunch more.

How much of that chain do you want to "get government out of the way"? It might get expensive. Hope you like EZ Pass.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #80 of 106 (permalink) Old 08-05-2008, 05:58 AM
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Eh, Bot, I do have an basic distaste for governmental intervention, preferring the impartial referee role more. I am undecided, though, on whether this particular playing field is truly level, given the entrenchment of the current favorite energy sources and the non-competitive nature of their actions (certainly, OPEC is a trust). Do you think this field is level?
No, the field is not level.

But again, if we look at history, free markets win in competition against artificially manipulated or closed markets. What drove a stake in communisms' heart was not greater control of our markets in response to their market control. It was the long-term failure of their interventionist policies as compared to our free(-er) market. Free markets are also what caused the collapse of the great mercantile enterprises of Europe. Etc.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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