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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2008, 12:28 AM
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There's a lot of gas there but it is expensive to extract. The Barnett Shale underlying most of Texas, which is about 200 million years older than the Haynesville play, dwarfs the Haynesville. T. Boone Pickens, who advocates running cars on natural gas (and who controls vast amounts of Texas mineral rights in the Barnett belt), believes that all of the shale plays will become economically viable if NG becomes a viable motor fuel, so I would look at it as more of a long term investment, although I do remember someone had a big strike somewhere in the Haynesville paly. The US has absolutely enormouse reserves of NG, but for years it has been cheaper to buy it from the rest of the world than it has been to extract it. Using it as a motor fuel is making more and more sense.
On the hardware side, does Natural Gas have the same abrasive qualities as propane when burned in internal combustion engines? That would mean some new alloys in the mix.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2008, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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NG is a low energy fuel. All of the bonds are simple C-H, the lowest energy bond that carbon has. So fuel volume is a consideration. Also, it requires a pressure vessel for storage. On the positive side is that NG is extremely clean-burning (producing H2O & CO2 as waste) and is abundant in North America.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2008, 09:48 AM
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If anyone here really thinks Pickens is doing this as a humanitarian gesture, I have some swamp land you might want to invest in... We are at least decades away from replacing fosile fuels as our primary source of energy. None of us will see it in our lifetimes.

Don't believe everything you think
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2008, 07:52 PM
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If anyone here really thinks Pickens is doing this as a humanitarian gesture, I have some swamp land you might want to invest in... We are at least decades away from replacing fosile fuels as our primary source of energy. None of us will see it in our lifetimes.
Does that feeling of warm tar provide you comfort as you slide into the pits?

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-26-2008, 09:23 PM
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Does that feeling of warm tar provide you comfort as you slide into the pits?
It's the pits...

Don't believe everything you think
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-28-2008, 09:46 AM
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If anyone here really thinks Pickens is doing this as a humanitarian gesture, I have some swamp land you might want to invest in... We are at least decades away from replacing fosile fuels as our primary source of energy. None of us will see it in our lifetimes.

A conversion to NG based auto fleets could be done in very few years, the retrofit on existing cars is no big deal, and the pipeline infrastructure for massive distribution already exists, and the installation of some big fat tank for compressed gas at every station isn't exactly a technologically advanced feat that would require some huge undertaking.

In answer to Mcbears question, NG is much less abrasive on an engine due to the fact it does not contaminate the motor oil the way burning gasoline does. The drawback to it is the lower energy content makes for a more sluggish vehicle than one powered by gasoline, however supercharging the engine can eliminate that drawback as well, and perhaps an engine redesign to some sort of Wankel type may also be in the cards.

Interestingly, there is a major article on shale gas on today's CNN Money site:

New shale natural gas drilling may pose water risk - Jul. 28, 2008

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-28-2008, 10:00 AM
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A conversion to NG based auto fleets could be done in very few years, the retrofit on existing cars is no big deal, and the pipeline infrastructure for massive distribution already exists, and the installation of some big fat tank for compressed gas at every station isn't exactly a technologically advanced feat that would require some huge undertaking.

In answer to Mcbears question, NG is much less abrasive on an engine due to the fact it does not contaminate the motor oil the way burning gasoline does. The drawback to it is the lower energy content makes for a more sluggish vehicle than one powered by gasoline, however supercharging the engine can eliminate that drawback as well, and perhaps an engine redesign to some sort of Wankel type may also be in the cards.

Interestingly, there is a major article on shale gas on today's CNN Money site:

New shale natural gas drilling may pose water risk - Jul. 28, 2008
Cool.

I was talking with some contractors who had converted to propane and their experience had been that the metals in the engine block cylinders and the valves showed an extreme abrasiveness which led to 100,000 mile engines instead of 200K+ for the heavy metal parts. That was the genesis of my question.

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-28-2008, 10:04 AM
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I have an extra Wankel engine sitting in the garage, maybe I should feed it some NG and see how it will do
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-28-2008, 10:16 AM
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Cool.

I was talking with some contractors who had converted to propane and their experience had been that the metals in the engine block cylinders and the valves showed an extreme abrasiveness which led to 100,000 mile engines instead of 200K+ for the heavy metal parts. That was the genesis of my question.
I've never heard that before. A simple google shows the blurbs:

natural gas engine wear - Google Search

Interesting site on conversions:

Energy Conversions Inc.- Dual fuel and natural gas engine products and services

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-28-2008, 12:56 PM
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I've never heard that before. A simple google shows the blurbs:

natural gas engine wear - Google Search

Interesting site on conversions:

Energy Conversions Inc.- Dual fuel and natural gas engine products and services
I went through many of those. I was trying to reconcile that with the hands on experience these guys are having with engines.

I have an 88 300SEL that is just parked right now with a newly rebuilt engine/tranny. I have been trying to decide what to do with it as it needs either a complete cosmetic restoration or a Sawzall. Body is perfect, just needs paint and interior restoration but the car has no 'value' by itself.

This might be an interesting first project for the garage. Well, after the fire retardation system is installed.

Edit: This seems to want to take the fun out of it.

Quote:
These regulations do not allow consumers to install retrofit kits themselves. EPA considers non-certified installations as representing “tampering with a federally approved emission control system,” an act punishable by a substantial fine.

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