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post #21 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:30 PM
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Choke-off the supply of money -- raising debt and raising taxes -- and libertarian principles will come to pass. Continue spending like drunken sailors and wake-up with a headache and the clap.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #22 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:31 PM
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Most of the time the Libertarian concepts are discussed in a vacuum, as in "what if we used the libertarian principles?". Let's turn the question around a bit.

How would the Libertarian principles address the current US status. Let's look at the big dogs in the yard.
  • The Financial Crisis [insure you include ramifications in any response]
  • Iraq/Afghanistan - Military upgrade for future
  • Social Security/Medicare
  • National Infrastructure [Airports, Air Traffic Control, Ports, Highways, Bridges, Schools, Hospitals]
  • $10 Trillion National Debt
  • Unemployment/Trade Deficit

Immigration and Health Care are also top shelf but are more optional for many people. Those listed items are REQUIREMENTS for this civilization to continue with reasonable health.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #23 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Most of the time the Libertarian concepts are discussed in a vacuum, as in "what if we used the libertarian principles?". Let's turn the question around a bit.

How would the Libertarian principles address the current US status. Let's look at the big dogs in the yard.
  • The Financial Crisis [insure you include ramifications in any response]
  • Iraq/Afghanistan - Military upgrade for future
  • Social Security/Medicare
  • National Infrastructure [Airports, Air Traffic Control, Ports, Highways, Bridges, Schools, Hospitals]
  • $10 Trillion National Debt
  • Unemployment/Trade Deficit

Immigration and Health Care are also top shelf but are more optional for many people. Those listed items are REQUIREMENTS for this civilization to continue with reasonable health.
1. good luck, everybody!
2. goodbye offensive military!
3. Take care of yourselves, parasites!
4. Taxation within the constitution, strictly interpreted.
5. paid with savings on expenditures.
6. get to work or get out of the way.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #24 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:44 PM
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Consider our government going libertarian in the same vein that you might consider going green. We can't just be green tomorrow, our entire economy would collapse overnight. Instead we start a trend, we make conservation fashionable, we take baby steps and get everyone emotionally on board to keep the trend going. The movement takes generations to fully implement, but we get there carefully and thoughtfully because that is the path that best facilitates our future survival.

Now apply those principles to smaller, more efficient government. It starts with a trend, and the trend starts with inspirational selfless leadership. We start by cutting spending in ways that allow us to apply the savings to our deficiencies. As these deficiencies are addressed, we move on to other needs, eventually reducing income requirements and easing the burden of taxation from the masses. The movement takes generations to fully implement, but we get there carefully and thoughtfully because that is the path that best facilitates our future survival.

You want tangible ideas that would see immediate results? Pull in our military from remote bases all over the word. We would have billions to apply to social security/medicare and even our national debt. Eliminate the social security system within a generation. Start privatizing as much of our crumbling infrastructure as possible to facilitate upkeep. You want more? You're a smart guy, figure it out. It all boils down to cutting expense before cutting income until we're where we want to be.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #25 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
1. good luck, everybody!
2. goodbye offensive military!
3. Take care of yourselves, parasites!
4. Taxation within the constitution, strictly interpreted.
5. paid with savings on expenditures.
6. get to work or get out of the way.

B
I expected flip. I got it.

Regarding 1. good luck...I am not sure a Depression after banks fail would be conducive to either your work or your retirement.

On 3, what about all the money they paid into the system?

On 6 Where?

You can do better. Really.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #26 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
Consider our government going libertarian in the same vein that you might consider going green. We can't just be green tomorrow, our entire economy would collapse overnight. Instead we start a trend, we make conservation fashionable, we take baby steps and get everyone emotionally on board to keep the trend going. The movement takes generations to fully implement, but we get there carefully and thoughtfully because that is the path that best facilitates our future survival.

Now apply those principles to smaller, more efficient government. It starts with a trend, and the trend starts with inspirational selfless leadership. We start by cutting spending in ways that allow us to apply the savings to our deficiencies. As these deficiencies are addressed, we move on to other needs, eventually reducing income requirements and easing the burden of taxation from the masses. The movement takes generations to fully implement, but we get there carefully and thoughtfully because that is the path that best facilitates our future survival.

You want tangible ideas that would see immediate results? Pull in our military from remote bases all over the word. We would have billions to apply to social security/medicare and even our national debt. Eliminate the social security system within a generation. Start privatizing as much of our crumbling infrastructure as possible to facilitate upkeep. You want more? You're a smart guy, figure it out. It all boils down to cutting expense before cutting income until we're where we want to be.
This I agree with. And interesting much of what I keep seeing talked about with things like Paygo and other programs that don't let deficits start.

My main issue that started this is Gridlock. THAT is what the main concern is and that is what has to not occur. There is just too much at stake.

What you write is absolutely correct for reducing the Debt which is the primary flag that the system is working and getting smaller. Right now we are at $3T annually, up from $2T just 4 years ago. That "growth" has to stop.

Paring back the Military and cutting those costs will be a nice Trillion in reduction [plus we might just piss a few less people off at the same time]

Social Security/Medicare is where the big problem is going to be in the short term. I think the boomers are going to live longer and take up more of those resources than anyone expected. That HAS to be addressed NOW. There can't be baby steps on that one.

McBear,
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post #27 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 09:59 PM
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Paring back the military is the solution for social security/medicare. And it's something that a libertarian-minded president could do quickly as CIC without having to wait for legislators to get on board.

Other than that, none of this will happen overnight. Legislators are programmed for more, more, more. Initiating and popularizing a less, less, less mindset will be difficult beyond reckoning, with every major power player (political parties, the media, corporate interests, etc.) in the country fighting hard to stay the course. Look how hard these guys worked to marginalize and vilify Ron Paul when he was seeking the GOP nomination.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #28 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 10:15 PM
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Paring back the military is the solution for social security/medicare. And it's something that a libertarian-minded president could do quickly as CIC without having to wait for legislators to get on board.
I think Obama will fit that bill pretty well. He doesn't seem to have Imperial tendencies or desire to forward project.

He certainly has the will of the people behind him [well, except the Shrinking28]

McBear,
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post #29 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I expected flip. I got it.

Regarding 1. good luck...I am not sure a Depression after banks fail would be conducive to either your work or your retirement.

On 3, what about all the money they paid into the system?

On 6 Where?

You can do better. Really.
You offer crap, you get flip.

You can do better, really.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #30 of 82 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
My main issue that started this is Gridlock. THAT is what the main concern is and that is what has to not occur. There is just too much at stake.
I think we're all on the same page here: Right direction > Gridlock > Wrong direction. It's just a matter of perspective.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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