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post #31 of 34 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 06:23 PM
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Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #32 of 34 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Now that is without question some of the best double talk I have seen in a long while. A 99 year lease is "just" a temporary thing.

So I guess, to insure precision, there is NOTHING permanent. PERIOD. No USA, no human race, no orb wandering around the Universe.

But in our REAL WORLD, 99 year leases in US Pentagon Speak are considered permanent bases. At least when I was doing BRAC work, bases where we had long term leases were listed as Permanent. So SOMEONE at the DoD disagrees with your assessment.
Double-talk is conflating permanence with impermanence, as you once again attempt.

Let's be clear: Permanence is contingent upon existence. In the case of 2 countries, it is based on the states' continued existence. If either party ceases to exist then the agreement ceases to exist. 99 year leases, whether between private parties or states, are not permanent -- they have an agreed-upon end. At that time they can be renegotiated or not. Also, if both parties agree then the agreement itself could be renegotiated at any time and a new agreement come into force.

Think of the Philippines:

Until November 1992, pursuant to the 1947 Military Bases Agreement, the United States maintained and operated major facilities at Clark Air Base, Subic Bay Naval Complex, and several small subsidiary installations in the Philippines. In August 1991, negotiators from the two countries reached agreement on a draft treaty providing for use of Subic Bay Naval Base by U.S. forces for 10 years. The draft treaty did not include use of Clark Air Base, which had been so heavily damaged by the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo that the U.S. decided to abandon it.

In September 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the bases treaty, and despite further efforts to salvage the situation, the two sides could not reach an agreement. As a result, the Philippine Government informed the U.S. on December 6, 1991, that it would have one year to complete withdrawal. That withdrawal went smoothly and was completed ahead of schedule, with the last U.S. forces departing on November 24, 1992. On departure, the U.S. Government turned over assets worth more than $1.3 billion to the Philippines, including an airport and ship-repair facility. Agencies formed by the Philippine Government have converted the former military bases for civilian commercial use, with Subic Bay serving as a flagship for that effort.

Philippines (04/08)

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #33 of 34 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
His position as printed on his website has always been to remove the troops at the earliest possible time [the usual printed time was always listed at 16 months]

This current position "change" which states that he will take in the advice of the boots on the ground is not a change of position. The exact comment:
"Obama said in South Dakota on Thursday that he would listen to military commanders on the ground when he visited Iraq this summer and tactically revise his Iraq plan afterwards.

"I am going to do a thorough assessment when I'm there," Obama said. "I'm sure I'll have more information and continue to refine my policy."

Media Spin for McCain on Iraq - Yahoo! News
And then look at what has been on the website for months.
Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Iraq

Tactical revision is not a change of policy. Tactical means "what troops when and how and why".

The end game is the same. The tactical revisions, in my opinion will come from changing circumstance since the initial remarks back in early 2007. The Iraqi PM's timeline, budget, assessments and other variables that have to be factored in. Iraq is a dynamic, not static environment and, thanks to Bush still unstable. Looking at ALL the variables is a requirement to achieve the same endgame.

The alternative is a "Stay the Course" mentality, no matter what the circumstance reveals. Somehow I don't think the American people want more Stay the Course FauxLogic.
On your last point, I think we're all in agreement (except Jayparrot). My concern is that Obama has retreated from a very firm, simply defined, rather absolute position to one that allows lots of room for waffling. That's not confidence inspiring. If the CiC wants troops out, then troops will come out - hell or high water.

It would be different if he qualified the whole dynamic/I'll listen to the troops/I'll refine my policy thing by saying "but no matter what, troops are coming home within 16 months"...that'd be one thing. Stepping away from that means that "Stay the Course" is on the table now, which is (I think) such a crucial and ultimately important point, the sudden absence of Obama's conviction here is enough to make me willing to walk away from him.
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post #34 of 34 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 07:34 PM
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^ Hey DistorterW140, Jayparrot, Bottomline, et al, it's possible to have less-than-positive conversations about Obama without resorting to fear mongering and racism. You stupid motherfuckers should pay attention, you might learn something about how to be a civilized individual in the 21st century....but we're not holding our breath.

And yes, I'm fully aware how ironic that sounds...you're so far away from the high ground, I'm not sweating it.
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