2nd Amendment upheld by the Supreme Court! - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #31 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
I don't believe the Founders intended to extend the ownership "right" of weapons of war to the individual
Completly agree.
No ICBM, F18, F22, etc should be in the hands of the private individual.
But a hunting rifle, a target gun or a protection or show off revolver are not considered weapons of war.
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post #32 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 06:07 PM
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Well , you have finally said something completely inconsistent with your intelligence level. If anything, the Founding Fathers clearly intended that individuals would have available to them, the same weapons as the military. At the time this was written, there was no difference between civilian and military arms. Had there been a notable distinction between the 2, it would have been an additional proviso, I'm sure. You may respectfully disagree, but that doesn't make you right. As far as DC goes, you try to fall back on the fact that adjoining jurisdictions didn't piss on the rights of their citizens and that made the DC gun ban "moot". Sorry, but the criminals responsible for DC's horrific crime rate didn't get their guns from the local sporting goods store in the next town, so any bans in the surrounding areas, or even the entire US will not remove the millions of firearms from circulation that are obtained illegally by this segment of society. It would however, make them secure in the knowledge that their potential victims have been disarmed. I cannot fathom the arguements of the liberal left for every single Amendment and the rights they bestow on US citizens except the Second Amendment.
I wasn't aware my IQ scores had been released to the public.

Actually, I believe the Founders would've added the proviso if they had intended to extend the "right" of weapon ownership to individuals. The were quite explicit about the militia part, yet stated nothing about civilian purposes.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

My point about the DC law is that in the absence of consistent regulation near and far away hamstrings their program. As I've stated in other threads, I'm largely ambivalent both about guns and gun bans, but nevertheless, I do not agree with the recent SCOTUS interpretation of the 2nd.
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post #33 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
I just happen to disagree with the slim majority of judicial activist's interpretation of the 2nd. I don't believe the Founders intended to extend the ownership "right" of weapons of war to the individual; clearly you and many other Merkins do. I'm more than happy to respectfully disagree....
It depends.

If you look at the weapons they had at the time then they absolutely did intend that weapons of war be held in private hands. That particular philosophy extended back in time to the English yeomen and was bought completely by the Founding Fathers. Why?

Because the Founding Fathers opposed the creation of a professional standing army. They thought that under most circumstances a well-armed citizenry would substitute well under most circumstances for a standing army. But if an army needed to be raised it was addressed by the constitution but had to be re-authorized every 2 years (which is why defense authorization bills last 2 years under most circumstances).

This is also why the militia was encoded into the constitution as a right of free individuals to form a militia without the permission of the central government or any other government -- the stipulation being that it should be well run.

It is a separate and extremely important issue that you bring-up concerning MODERN weapons of war. I do not believe that many normal people would argue the need for private citizens to own modern self-propelled howitzers. And if they did make that argument and pointed to the 2nd Amendment I think most people would agree that the argument is fallacious. None of the rights of individuals spelled-out in the constitution are absolute. Congress & the Supreme Court and the citizens have since the inception recognized that the rights of individuals come into conflict with each other. We have a large system of laws written to address those instances.

For example, we have freedom of the press. It extends up to libel. But at some point, a free press does have an obligation to tell the truth about individuals or at least be able to demonstrate that the published information could be construed as believable to a jury of peers. It does little harm to the press that the right of an individual to his good name overwhelms the right of the press to print whatever they wish.

I think reasonable people could easily make a similar argument regarding weapon ownership and carrying. In fact, the majority of the justices said almost exactly that in their opinion.

B

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~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #34 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 06:52 PM
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A well regulated school , being necessary to the advancement of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear books , shall not be infringed.

A well regulated equity market , being necessary to the financial growth of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear stocks , shall not be infringed.
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post #35 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 07:05 PM
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Court Three provisions of the Constitution refer to “the people” in a context other than “rights”—the famous preamble (“We the people”), §2 of Article I (providing that “the people” will choose members of the House), and the Tenth Amendment (providing that those powers not given the Federal Government remain with “the States” or “the people”). Those provisions arguably refer to “the people” acting collectively—but they deal with the exercise or reservation of powers, not rights.

Nowhere else in the Constitution does a “right” attributed to “the people” refer to anything other than an individual right. What is more, in all six other provisions of the Constitution that mention “the people,” the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #36 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 07:15 PM
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would one still continue to live in a house where one had gunned down an intruder?

Would the homeowner send the body of an intruder to taxidermist and then display it proudly over the fireplace?

I for one, would feel quite violated by the fact that my house has been broken into, and I know the stains will not wash off no matter how much bottles of bleach are dumped (think Lady Macbeth). I have preventive measures, like the security system and all that, but if someone decides to invade my house, then I'd rather lead my family to the neighbor's house, then call 911 rather than to resort to bloody vigilanteism (it's more fun to hear about those stories than to actually live through them).

Just imagine, part of intruder's brain seeped beyond reach under the floorboard...





I don't understand this whole castle doctorine.

I am a U.S. Citizen by birth, but having raised in more civilized nations (e.g. nations and cultures with histories that go beyond a mere few hundred years), I really don't understand this whole second amendment issue.

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馬鹿は死ななきゃ治らない。

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post #37 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Naomilla2.0 View Post
...
1. I don't understand this whole castle doctorine.

2. I am a U.S. Citizen by birth, but having raised in more civilized nations (e.g. nations and cultures with histories that go beyond a mere few hundred years), I really don't understand this whole second amendment issue.
1. Which explains why you enjoy life in a dictatorship.
2. I have found that living among less judgmental people a more salubrious environment.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama

Last edited by Botnst; 06-27-2008 at 08:50 PM.
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post #38 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R. View Post
I find it hard to understand the liberal mind set. One would think that as much as you all hate the Bush Administration, you would want to be able to defend yourselves from what more of the same could or would do to you.

The liberal mindset is this: Nobody should own guns, Simple. They are implements of destruction and nothing else. There is no longer a practical reason to hunt, Walmart Supercenter has it covered.

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post #39 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Naomilla2.0 View Post
would one still continue to live in a house where one had gunned down an intruder?

Would the homeowner send the body of an intruder to taxidermist and then display it proudly over the fireplace?
I would, for sure.

In fact, it could be fun.

I am not that civilized, I admit.

My ancestors faced quite a few intruders. Had they have firearms, they would come out alive. But they had not. Alas.

Last edited by maine_coon; 06-27-2008 at 09:11 PM.
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post #40 of 113 (permalink) Old 06-27-2008, 09:44 PM
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I don't understand this whole castle doctorine.
The doctrine of mandatory retreat is nullified – in Florida it’s also known as ‘stand your ground.’ The ‘castle’ also goes with the individual – to his car or place of employment, anywhere he has permission to be. In essence I can blow the shit out of an intruder with impunity – yes, I’ll have to move but my family will be unharmed, I can live with that.

Quote:
I really don't understand this whole second amendment issue.
It has to do with the British heading straight for the guns and powder c. 1776 as a prelude to enslavement of the American colonists. The framers were also concerned the new Government might fail in the future – the people should always have the means to resist oppression regardless of the source.

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There is no longer a practical reason to hunt…
Hunt, Schmunt – an AK, an open field, and gallon milk jugs full of water is where it’s at.
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