Keep taxes low: Allowing Bush cuts to expire will slam families, strangle investment - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by AndreiRN View Post
That is the knowledge of accurate job estimating.
We do a low/bad estimate and we lose 5%.
We do a good estimate and have no competition, we make 40%.
But the 5% loss is deductible if properly documented.

But very few addmit that the use company funds for their own needs.
Gas, car, paint, cement, food, etc .......
It's funny our formula worked for 14 years, until fuel prices spiked to where we've been ass raped by every supplier. Knowledge has nothing to do with taking beatings on unnatural price increases. Her food supplies have endured a 40% increase just last year and floral prices another 60%. Unheard of in the history of our business. We could have built in another 20% for supplies and we'd still been screwed.

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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 09:45 AM
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I like your thinking on politics, but your finances and taxation need a little work.
The purpose of a business is to recover its costs and "then some". Not all costs are deductible (you mentioned "lunch"--that's one that is not fully deductible). And costs are deducted from revenue before taxation is applied. Of course, taxation, especially for corporations, is a business cost that has to be recovered, so, yes, customers pay that. It's a great myth that we tax corporations, despite the Democrat mantra.

And C corporations can do loss-carrybacks and carry-forwards, but only against their own profits, not anyone else's.
The only way one can conceive that all losses are transferred to taxpayers is to believe that all money belongs to the government. It doesn't....yet.
By taxing corporations instead of people, the tax burden is moved into the market place. The idea that businesses automatically pass costs on is ridiculous, it is the market that determines whether they can or not,not some row of figures added and subtracted. Tax policy on corporations can also be used to bring about social change. Right now we should be taxing the crap out of oil and not taxing liquid coal or solar at all, which would help us all in the long run.

And where did you ever get the idea lunch is not deductable?

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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 09:59 AM
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You are so full of shit. Note, that obviously, math is not your strong point but you think bullshit is. If you want credibility, at least try to make your BS believable.
1st. Bolded Point:
30%, eh? Such a crock. A man earning $300 per week and single will pay a total of $1,170 in federal income tax AND Social Insecurity tax. That's 7.5%, NOT 30%. If he happens to be married, he'll pay nothing until he makes around $20,000 and if he has kids, he gets back $300 per child. HE SHOULD BE PAYING NOTHING but you liberals wouldn't have it that way.
Now, if this same sap was making $300 on the previous tax scale, you know, the one in place when Clinton left office, He would pay $1,898 in federal and SS taxes, 12.2% of his income instead of 7.5%. Plus, he'd had no $300 per child tax credit, either.

Your continual claims the tax cuts didn't help the working man are unfounded. Furthermore, I don't think the tax cuts on the working class went far enough.

Your second bullshit point is saying it took 224 years to run up the first 2 trillion. WRONG! There was no debt to speak of until the '60's. So if you back track, for good measure, to, say, 1940 when the national debt became a blip on the radar screen, when FDR had war taxes slapped on everyone, that's still only 68 years, NOT 224. Perhaps our spend thrift government (That's both party affiliates) would do better if they took a look back at how things were run 100 years ago. You seem to forget that money owed to Social Security is the largest portion of the debt.

Now, the debt figure you so eloquently throw out there is also wrong. When Bush I left office and Clinton took over the national debt was approx. $4.2 trillion. When Clinton left office 8 years later, that debt had gone up to approx. $5.8 trillion, NOT the $2 trillion you claim it was. You seem to have lost 3.8 trillion in your figures, somewhere, dude. Presently, the national debt is $8.8 trillion, an increase of $3 trillion dollars or 50% increase on the beginning debt amount when Bush II took office. The national debt increased 40% during Clinton's 8 years. If you were to subtract the $544,000,000,000 the Iraq war alone has cost, the debt increase would be AT THE SAME PERCENTAGE PACE as it was during Clinton's term. As government bloats, so does the expense in running it, so government growth is continuing at the same rapid pace as the last 16 or so years.

So, as evidenced by these actual figures, BOTH parties are equally responsible for the mess we're in. Your attempts to lay it all at the feet of Republicans while giving your own party a free pass is complete horse shit. Nothing is going to change until the culture of corruption in Washington is changed. McCain won't change it and neither will Obama.
The $300 amount was chosen arbitrarily for illustration purposes only.

I stand corrected on the amount of debt Bush inherited, you must be pround that he only doubled the national debt in his term in office. To compare to the Democrat's prior term in office:

President Clinton announces another record budget surplus - September 27, 2000

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
I stand corrected on the amount of debt Bush inherited, you must be pround that he only doubled the national debt in his term in office. To compare to the Democrat's prior term in office:

President Clinton announces another record budget surplus - September 27, 2000
Very accurate.
Against common beliefs in the last 20 years the republicans have been the spenders and the democrats have done the savings.
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 06:49 PM
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Even w/ President Bush's tax cuts, indeed long before them, the US tax system punished business--especially successful businesses--to the point where we drove them away. The statistics you present would have been much much worse if it were not for the Bush tax cuts!
No, the US Tax System does not punish American Business. The ADD laden "gotta make THIS number THIS quarter or you are SHIT" mentality of the talking heads and brokers on Wall Street are what punish American Business and push them to do ANYTHING to shave another .002 off the expense sheet.

When a company says they will make a 7% profit for the quarter and only come in at 6.95% Wall Street brutalizes them, stockholders get their panties in a wad and they do everything they can to not let that happen again. They then start making their plans for the next quarter instead of the next 3-5-10 years.

THAT is what punished successful American Business, not our very generous tax system. You need to see what much of the rest of the world does [and how successful their companies are within their systems] before assuming WE have a punishing tax system.

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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
Fortune 500 companies would not be affected to near the degree that the largest group of employers would be--small businesses. Most of these are SubChapter S and Sole Proprietors who are taxed at the personal rate, plus both sides of Social Security tax.

As for your hint above, somewhere in there is a cogent thought straining to be released. Try again.
Funny, everyone else got it. Must just be you.

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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AndreiRN
No way.
Business has a free lunch in US.
Every expense is transferred to consumer.
100% of "cost of doing" business is deductible and ALL loses are transferred to taxpayers.

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Originally Posted by bottomline1 View Post
I like your thinking on politics, but your finances and taxation need a little work.
The purpose of a business is to recover its costs and "then some". Not all costs are deductible (you mentioned "lunch"--that's one that is not fully deductible). And costs are deducted from revenue before taxation is applied. Of course, taxation, especially for corporations, is a business cost that has to be recovered, so, yes, customers pay that. It's a great myth that we tax corporations, despite the Democrat mantra.

And C corporations can do loss-carrybacks and carry-forwards, but only against their own profits, not anyone else's.
The only way one can conceive that all losses are transferred to taxpayers is to believe that all money belongs to the government. It doesn't....yet.
Have you actually run a business or is this just "theory" to you? You need to reread what AndreiRN posted and start over. Again, I don't think you comprehended the meaning of his post.

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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
Your second bullshit point is saying it took 224 years to run up the first 2 trillion. WRONG! There was no debt to speak of until the '60's. So if you back track, for good measure, to, say, 1940 when the national debt became a blip on the radar screen, when FDR had war taxes slapped on everyone, that's still only 68 years, NOT 224. Perhaps our spend thrift government (That's both party affiliates) would do better if they took a look back at how things were run 100 years ago. You seem to forget that money owed to Social Security is the largest portion of the debt.

Now, the debt figure you so eloquently throw out there is also wrong. When Bush I left office and Clinton took over the national debt was approx. $4.2 trillion. When Clinton left office 8 years later, that debt had gone up to approx. $5.8 trillion, NOT the $2 trillion you claim it was. You seem to have lost 3.8 trillion in your figures, somewhere, dude. Presently, the national debt is $8.8 trillion, an increase of $3 trillion dollars or 50% increase on the beginning debt amount when Bush II took office. The national debt increased 40% during Clinton's 8 years. If you were to subtract the $544,000,000,000 the Iraq war alone has cost, the debt increase would be AT THE SAME PERCENTAGE PACE as it was during Clinton's term. As government bloats, so does the expense in running it, so government growth is continuing at the same rapid pace as the last 16 or so years.

So, as evidenced by these actual figures, BOTH parties are equally responsible for the mess we're in. Your attempts to lay it all at the feet of Republicans while giving your own party a free pass is complete horse shit. Nothing is going to change until the culture of corruption in Washington is changed. McCain won't change it and neither will Obama.
Um...

First, YES, it did take 224 years to run up the first bit, tickling $2Trillion around 1985. $1Trillion was in 1981 [Reagan was an overachiever].

And right now [as of today] the National debt is $9.4Trillion [see link below]. I is projected to hit $10Trillion about the time Bushie leaves office [he likes zeros].

The uplift in Clinton National Debt was due, in no small part to the first four years of reduction of the budget deficits that were holdovers from Bush1. Also, INTEREST on the $4T was starting to pile up. Note on the chart, however that the growth of DEBT crawls to a stop [and if you remember, Bush campaigned on how he was going to use the new surpluses for programs].

One other serious consideration to look at. The current deficit spending that contributes to Bushie's accelerating National Debt. That deficit is based on spending ABOVE the now $3Trillion regular annual National Budget. In other words, the threshold for deficit spending is higher [and still breached].

The point of that last part is that you mentioned the $544Billion of Iraq spending. Well, it has been included, for the very most part in the Pentagon's NORMAL operating budget for the past six years and really shouldn't be included in the National debt calculus [though it is a ancillary contributor].

Sorry for the crappy sized chart.

National Debt Clock: U.S. National Debt Clock

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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 07:28 PM
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While what you say is generally true, it applies mostly to larger businesses and corporations. Sole proprietorships get hurt the most because they can't quickly transfer tax burdens on to the consumer. Case in point, our catering business, where we contract jobs several months ahead of time. If we endure any kind of tax or price increase, we generally eat it on those contracts we've already signed. We've fixed our contract to alleviate this trouble since we took a few price increase hits in the last several weeks.
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Originally Posted by AndreiRN View Post
That is the knowledge of accurate job estimating.
We do a low/bad estimate and we lose 5%.
We do a good estimate and have no competition, we make 40%.
But the 5% loss is deductible if properly documented.

But very few addmit that the use company funds for their own needs.
Gas, car, paint, cement, food, etc .......
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
It's funny our formula worked for 14 years, until fuel prices spiked to where we've been ass raped by every supplier. Knowledge has nothing to do with taking beatings on unnatural price increases. Her food supplies have endured a 40% increase just last year and floral prices another 60%. Unheard of in the history of our business. We could have built in another 20% for supplies and we'd still been screwed.
What I have always done, and recommended for others in small business is to include a "market price" caveat for all outside expenses. In my case that is airfare and hotel and gasoline but in the past it has been printing costs, paper, import fees, film, etc. [much of my costs did a major leap in the late 80s for my postcard/photography, nearly 100% over the summer.

A couple of friends who cater or run restaurants are having the same problems as your catering biz. Delivery costs are double, wages are up 50%, foodstuffs up easy 30-40%.

My market price condition in my contracts allow me to get contracts and, once actuals are quoted I can contact the client, provide actuals to them and give them the option of accepting or not.

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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 06-12-2008, 09:30 PM
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Have you actually run a business or is this just "theory" to you? You need to reread what AndreiRN posted and start over. Again, I don't think you comprehended the meaning of his post.
Well, wise one, you woke up from your stupor to stomp on the little people.

Enlighten me as to what was meant by, "all loses are transferred to taxpayers"

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