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post #51 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
While in any war there are atrocities on both sides, the cruelty and barbarism of the Crusading Armies is legendary. Their general practice was to massacre as many people as they could get their hands on following their seige, and it did not matter much to them if they were Muslims or local Christians.
I congratulate you: Legendary is more accurate than historical.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #52 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 12:21 PM
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Ok Professor A. History, bring it on--enlighten us. Tell us all about the big bad muslims and how they were ever more dastardly than our heroic christian soldiers
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post #53 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Bullshit. Your reading of history is probably as circumscribed as your access to the Internet.
Mr. Guantanamo and crusades supporter,

I can access any internet site I want, even if blocked, using a proxy. Everybody can or actually do it. On the other hand, your unlimited internet access does you no good when you choose to limit yourself to hate fostering sites that lie plainly to you and the likes of you who won't bother to check the credibility of these sites' false claims. Things as simple as false 'quotes' from the Quran with no reference to sura/chapter nor aya/verse.

Whether you play with words or admit the truth, the crusades were a grossly brutal chapter in human history. Not the only one but definitely one you can't deny.

Wikipedia:
Crusades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"For the first decade, the Crusaders pursed a policy of terror against Muslims and Jews that included mass executions, the throwing of severed heads over besieged cities walls, exhibition and mutilation of naked cadavers, and even cannibalism, as was recorded after the Siege of Maarat."
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post #54 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 12:54 PM
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Talhoube, you will never get Bot to admit he's wrong even if he knows he's wrong, that's just Bot. and you will get all sort of dancing around the subject with no commitment to anything because in his own words as usual he's doesn't give a shit or fuk I forgot which is which but it's all the same.
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post #55 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 01:26 PM
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Hey, don't you guys know that B is a Professor of Alternative History at The Limbaugh Institute?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #56 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Mr. Guantanamo and crusades supporter,

I can access any internet site I want, even if blocked, using a proxy. Everybody can or actually do it. On the other hand, your unlimited internet access does you no good when you choose to limit yourself to hate fostering sites that lie plainly to you and the likes of you who won't bother to check the credibility of these sites' false claims. Things as simple as false 'quotes' from the Quran with no reference to sura/chapter nor aya/verse.

Whether you play with words or admit the truth, the crusades were a grossly brutal chapter in human history. Not the only one but definitely one you can't deny.
...
Crusades supporter, hah! I don't trust shaman's of any religion. Any. Those christian cultists were a brutal bunch, no doubt. But that doesn't explain or excuse the episodic Muslim mayhem as the crusader's power ebbed and flowed over that benighted land. And do let us talk about their treatment of Persia and India. You want to enumerate their many brutalities? Fine with me, get your calculator out and lets count-up the bodies!

First of all, you do the Christians a grave disservice: They have killed far more than the victims of the crusades. They butchered each other with gusto over the centuries. And there's the bloody conquest and conversion of the Americas!

But leaving that for a moment (I have great faith that you and otehrs will be delighted to pick it up and drape it on my shoulders), let's turn to Edward Gibbon's statistics:

Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:
Volume Four:
532 CE - Nike Revolt: 30,000 massacred in Hippodrome
Cabades lost 50,000 besieging Amida. 80,000 inhabitants massacred.
Battle of Dara: 8,000 Persians
Romans v. Moors, outside Carthage: 60,000 Moors
537 CE - Belisarius defends Rome: 30,000 + 5,000 Goths
538 CE - 300,000 adult males massacred by Ostrogoths and Burgundians in Milan
ca. 552 CE - Lombards v Gepids: 40,000 Gepids
Siege of Topirus: Sclavonians massacred 15,000 males
According to the Byzantine historian Procopius, throughout Justinian's thirty-two-year reign, each annual inroad of Barbarians killed 200,000 inhabitants of the Roman empire, which would come to a total of 6.4 million people. Gibbon doubts this "incredible estimate", as the area under attack probably couldn't even support this many people.
Battle of Phasis: 10,000
Battle of Tagina: 6,000 Goths
Byzantine reconquest of Italy: 50,000 laborers died of hunger in Picenum.
Reign of Hormouz in Persia: 13,000
Roman expediton against Gepids: 60,000
12,000 Roman POWs massacred
614 CE - Persian Shah Chosroes allows massacre of 90,000 Christians in Jerusalem
622-28 CE - War between Heraclius and Persians: 200,000 soldiers
514 CE - Religious War: "exterminated" 65,000 "fellow-Christians"
20,000 Sarmatians and 100,000 Roman subjects in Sarmatian War
Monophysite riot in Alexandria: 200,000 Christians k.
Volume Five:
32,000 Bulgarians k. in Thrace
Siege of Amorium: 70,000 Moslem and 30,000 Christians.
ca. 850 CE - 100,000 Paulicans executed by Empress Theodora
In Italy, k by Hungarians: 20,000 (to p.166)
Marcianopolis, or Peristhlaba: 8,500 Russians
Catholic Encyclopedia
"Jerusalem": >90,000 Christians died when city fell to Persians, 614 BCE

And that's just the beginning! I'll leave it for now and offer yet another interesting nugget of human brutality and suffering: Slavery, which is currently practiced only in a few Muslim countries.
----------------------------------
Slavery in the Islamic World

Ronald Segal, in Islam's Black Slaves, estimates the total number of African slaves shipped to the Muslim world at 11.5M-14M. This breaks down as follows:

From 650-1600 CE
Citing Ralph Austen:
Trans-Saharan: 4,820,000
Red Sea: 1.6M
East Africa: 0.8M
TOTAL: 7.22M shipped
Citing Paul Lovejoy: 3.5-10.0M shipped
17th Century
Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.1M
East Africa: 0.1M
TOTAL: 900,000 shipped
18th C
Sahara: 0.7M
Red Sea: 0.2M
East Africa: 0.4M
TOTAL: 1,300,000 shipped
19th C
Sahara: 1.2M
Red Sea: 0.45M
East Africa: 0.442M
TOTAL: 2,092,000 shipped
TOTAL: 11,512,000 shipped
Segal also mentions estimates by Raymond Mauvy:

7th C: 0.1M
8th C: 0.2M
9th C: 0.4M
10th-13th Cs: 2.0M
14th C: 1.0M
15th-19th Cs: 10.0M
First half 20th C.: 300,000
TOTAL: 14M shipped
What was the mortality rate among these slaves? Here are a few estimates in Segal:

Wylde: Each eunuch in Cairo represented 200 dead Sudanese.
Hourst, 19th C: each sale represented a loss of ten in the original population, including raids.
Livingstone: 1 living = 10 dead.
British Govt Rpt: For every 10 slaves reaching 19C Cairo, 50 died on the way.
Nachtigal: on one large [typical?] Saharan caravan, 3 or 4 died for every survivor.
UK Consul in Zanzibar: 1:1 ratio
Mahadi: 20% d. in Saharan trade
Lovejoy, citing Martin: 9% overall in 19th C. East Africa. (Segal: safe estimate)
[MEDIAN of these estimates: 3 to 5 deaths for every 1 live import]
Death Toll

How many people died in all the slave harvesting by Moslems over the centuries? I hesitate to estimate, but I think we can safely assume that at least 3 people died for every 2 living slaves delivered (similar to the death rate in the Atlantic trade), which comes to about 19M deaths. Keep in mind that the data is so spotty and the margin of error so wide that we can't honestly or definitively accuse either the Christian or Moslem slave trade of being worse than the other.

Lest you suspect that I might give Christians a pass ....
African American Slavery

In American Holocaust (1992), David Stannard estimates that some 30 to 60 million Africans died being enslaved. He claims a 50% mortality rate among new slaves while being gathered and stored in Africa, a 10% mortality among the survivors while crossing the ocean, and another 50% mortality rate in the first "seasoning" phase of slave labor. Overall, he estimates a 75-80% mortality rate in transit.

In Slavery A World History, Milton Meltzer estimates that 10 million slaves arrived in the Americas. This would be the residue after 12.5% of those shipped out from Africa died on the ocean, 4-5% died while waiting in harbor, and 33% died during the first year of seasoning.

In "The Atlantic Slave Trade and the Holocaust" (Is the Holocaust Unique, A. Greebaum, ed., 1996), Seymour Drescher estimates that 21M were enslaved, 1700-1850, of which 7M remained in slavery inside Africa. 4M died "as a direct result of enslavement". Of the 12M shipped to America, 15%, or 2M more, died in the Middle Passage and seasoning year.

Jan Rogozinski, A Brief History of the Caribbean (1994): "[A]s many as eight million Africans may have died in order to bring four million slaves to the Caribbean islands."

In The Slave Trade, Hugh Thomas estimates that 13M left African ports, and 11,328,000 arrived. Here are a few other numbers from Thomas:

No year-by-year stats, but by piecing together scattered decade stats, I figure that 5M slaves were shipped in the 18th Century.
Shipboard mortality among slaves:
Mercado in 1569 estimated an average shipboard mortality of 20%
Brazilian historians: 15-20% in 16th C; 10% in 19th C.
English trade:
1680s: 24%
early 18th C: 10%
1780s: 5.65%
Hugh Thomas: 9% reasonable est. for 18th C.
19th C
Cliffe: 35%
House of Commons: 9.1%
Thomson: 9%
Hotham: 5%
In the chapter on African population in the Atlas of World Population History (1978), Colin McEvedy estimates that 9.5 million African slaves were imported into the Americas between 1500 and 1880. He also suggests a 15% mortality rate on the ocean.

Rummel estimates a total death toll of 17,267,000 African slaves (1451-1870)

Among slaves going to Orient: 2,400,000 dead
Among slaves staying in Africa: 1,200,000 dead
Among slaves going to New World: 13,667,000 dead
Fredric Wertham claims that 150,000,000 Africans died of the slave trade.

My Estimate:

Looking at all the scholarship on the subject, it looks like, at the very least, 35% of those enslaved in Africa died before they were ever put to work in America. On the other hand, at least 20% of them survived. Between these extreme possibilites (35-80%), the most likely mortality rate is 62%.

In terms of absolute numbers, the lowest possible (and only barely possible at that) death toll we can put on the trans-Atlantic slave trade is 6 million. If we assume the absolute worst, a death toll as high as 60 million is at the very edge of possibility; however, the likeliest number of deaths would fall somewhere from 15 to 20 million.


The sorce for most of the above was: Twentieth Century Atlas - Historical Body Count p.2

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #57 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 05:06 PM
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^^
and what have we learned from all that? Invade Iraq and probably Iran in the near future? Let's get'em before they get us?
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post #58 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-05-2008, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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^^
and what have we learned from all that? Invade Iraq and probably Iran in the near future? Let's get'em before they get us?
The continuing lesson for me is that people will use religion to their own purposes and usually to no good end. Whenever I read or hear of somebody claiming to know the heart or mind of God I am reminded of the many graveyards such people have filled in the past. By all evidence, they still see graveyards in their future.

Also that Tahloube is breathtakingly ignorant. I do not yet know whether that is an unfortunate product of her environment or through willful ignorance. "She" is an intelligent person and thus for her, ignorance is not a permanent curse unless she wills it so.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama

Last edited by Botnst; 05-05-2008 at 07:23 PM.
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post #59 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-06-2008, 05:41 AM
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.. I don't trust shaman's of any religion. Any. ..
Good. Neither do I, especially that Muslims don't have any shamans.


Quote:
First of all, you do the Christians a grave disservice: They have killed far more than the victims of the crusades. They butchered each other with gusto over the centuries. And there's the bloody conquest and conversion of the Americas!
Still, I don't brand Christians as terrorist because of it. Let's treat Muslims in the same way, please.


I don't know what idea you have about Islam's stance on slavery. As I said and will always say, please make a distinction between what Islam is and what Muslims do, especially the non-pious .

Please take a look at this link:
Islam Question and Answer - Islam and slavery

Excerpts:

Muhammed, peace be upon him says:
Allaah, may He be exalted, said: ‘There are three whose opponent I will be on the Day of Resurrection, and whomever I oppose, I will defeat … A man who sold a free man and consumed his price.’” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (2227).

"You do not find any text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah which enjoins taking others as slaves, whereas there are dozens of texts in the Qur’aan and the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which call for manumitting slaves and freeing them."

"Islam changed the way in which slavery was dealt with; it created many new ways of liberating slaves, blocked many ways of enslaving people, and established guidelines which blocked these means."

"One of the means of liberating slaves is allocating a portion of zakaah funds to freeing slaves; the expiation for accidental killing, zihaar (a jaahili form of divorce that is forbidden), breaking vows and having intercourse during the day in Ramadaan, is to free a slave. In addition to that, Muslims are also encouraged in general terms to free slaves for the sake of Allaah."





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post #60 of 98 (permalink) Old 05-06-2008, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
The continuing lesson for me is that people will use religion to their own purposes and usually to no good end. Whenever I read or hear of somebody claiming to know the heart or mind of God I am reminded of the many graveyards such people have filled in the past. By all evidence, they still see graveyards in their future.

Also that Tahloube is breathtakingly ignorant. I do not yet know whether that is an unfortunate product of her environment or through willful ignorance. "She" is an intelligent person and thus for her, ignorance is not a permanent curse unless she wills it so.

B
Though the Crusades lasted for many years, the actual amount of fighting was reasonably small. Of the 174 years of the Crusades, only 24 involved fighting and not all of the 24 years were spent in battle.
But what really separates the two now is a thousands years of development a renaissance and a referendum and civilian up rising and war after war to free us of the yoke of royalty and the grip on state by religion.

Christians have traditionally been fundamentalists, but that as the plausibility of fundamentalist readings of the text has been eroded by the march of reason, “irritated theologians” protest that they no longer take biblical texts literally. Patristic and medieval theology worked with a rich, at times almost uncontrollable diversity of “senses of scripture”. Passages of Scripture gave up their sense only by being read in many different ways. Fundamentalism – in the sense of the privileging of the meaning which a passage, taken out of any context, appears a priori, on the surface, to possess – is, as the Old Testament scholar James Barr demonstrated thirty years ago, a byproduct of modern rationalism: of the privileging of timeless and direct description, of mathematics over metaphor, prose over poetry.
And agreed Bot they all have a history drenched in blood, built by blood and a future that will drown in blood, after all they are all based on a cult of blood sacrifice, what do you expect? .
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