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post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-26-2008, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
The rule was made to keep the primaries organized, not to either franchise or disenfranchise voters. Florida and Michigan party officials had ample time to adjust their schedules to meet the requirements that THEY signed on for. They were warned repeatedly. What foolishness they thought it would bring is beyond me other than they wanted to be the king maker.

The rule was simple. Breaking it was simple. Fixing it prior to the primaries was simple. Why Florida and Michigan VOTERS didn't address it with their leaders to insure they were counted is not so simple.

But if you "bend" this rule, what other rules do you "bend" that might give someone else a different advantage? Either you abide by the rules package that EVERYONE agreed to or you throw them all out the window and start over.

Do we really need another election that has Florida's inability to handle an election process at the forefront of the news?
I agree, but, as always, this is typical liberal-think. We are to judge them by their good intentions, not their results.

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post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-26-2008, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by McBear
The rule was made to keep the primaries organized, not to either franchise or disenfranchise voters.
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I agree, but, as always, this is typical liberal-think. We are to judge them by their good intentions, not their results.
How are scheduling rules "liberal-think"??? They are either the rules or they are not. It was part of the procedural package. Not really something that one would intertwine with political dogma.

And what does "We are to judge them by their good intentions, not their results" even mean?

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post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-26-2008, 12:37 PM
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Another way of saying it is that they didn't want to not be the kingmaker.


Poor leadership all around. It's like Keyser Söze, killing his enemies, their families, their business associates and so on. People who had no part in creating a bad situation are punished.


You don't think they BOTH found ways to hedge their bets? Hillary stayed on the ballot in MI and Barack?


Perhaps Perot wasn't too far off with his "crazy Aunt in the basement" remark?

When I found out Al Sharpton's position, I felt better about my own.

Al Sharpton Said Seating Delegates From Florida And Michigan At The DNC Would Be A Grave Injustice.
Seating delegates from Florida and Michigan at the Democratic National Convention would be a grave injustice, the Rev. Al Sharpton said Wednesday in a break with prominent civil rights leaders. "I firmly believe that changing the rules now, and seating delegates from Florida and Michigan at this point would not only violate the Democratic Party's rules of fairness, but also would be a grave injustice," Sharpton said in a letter to Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean.
Everyone is being caught in the trap of moving the point. The point is that two states broke a simple set of rules [and contract] and had ample time to rectify the problem BEFORE the primary date. They failed to do so, and also failed to come up with a plan to fix their error.

Once votes were cast in the flawed election, of course the remaining candidates would have no choice but to take sides on the previous results. The problem is those results are tainted. some names were not on the ballots [per rules] and no one was suppose to campaign in those states [per rules and signed contract].

So the point has been moved from Originally: "two states breaking the rules and not rectifying that problem when given the chance, thus having to serve the prescribed penalty [per rules] to Currently: "it is not fair that we are disenfranchising the votes of Democrats in two states just because their leaders broke the rules".

The only four solutions are to seat the delegates and split their votes evenly between all the candidates that were still in the race on the date of their state primary, split the delegates between the two remaining candidates, seat them and have their delegates either not count or count a % of whole or just not seat them and let the chips fall to the rules.

The only solution that can't occur is to have flawed votes affect the outcome of an election from a rogue state whose officials think they can call the shots for the National election. Besides the lawsuits that would be filed before the confetti was swept up, the country does not need another election tainted by a court decided outcome. Sticking FIRM by the rules is the best hope of avoiding that prospect.





.

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post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-26-2008, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
Everyone is being caught in the trap of moving the point. The point is that two states broke a simple set of rules [and contract] and had ample time to rectify the problem BEFORE the primary date. They failed to do so, and also failed to come up with a plan to fix their error.

Once votes were cast in the flawed election, of course the remaining candidates would have no choice but to take sides on the previous results. The problem is those results are tainted. some names were not on the ballots [per rules] and no one was suppose to campaign in those states [per rules and signed contract].

So the point has been moved from Originally: "two states breaking the rules and not rectifying that problem when given the chance, thus having to serve the prescribed penalty [per rules] to Currently: "it is not fair that we are disenfranchising the votes of Democrats in two states just because their leaders broke the rules".

The only four solutions are to seat the delegates and split their votes evenly between all the candidates that were still in the race on the date of their state primary, split the delegates between the two remaining candidates, seat them and have their delegates either not count or count a % of whole or just not seat them and let the chips fall to the rules.

The only solution that can't occur is to have flawed votes affect the outcome of an election from a rogue state whose officials think they can call the shots for the National election. Besides the lawsuits that would be filed before the confetti was swept up, the country does not need another election tainted by a court decided outcome. Sticking FIRM by the rules is the best hope of avoiding that prospect.
The original point (of the thread) was that one of the candidates in the primary was making a desperate maneuver to maintain their candidacy.

Your point is that there is a rule and right or wrong, it must be followed, regardless of the consequences.

My point is that the inability of the rule makers and the rule breakers to reach an agreement has eliminated citizens' ability to choose their candidate.

I don't believe that the point has moved. I believe that two different points are being discussed.

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post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-26-2008, 05:46 PM
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So is anyone else ready for the televised lottery for president? Sure there will be some ground rules, and some basic minimums attached, but hey it could be entertaining and well most suckers, er, people will have a chance. We can set it up like American Idol and draw down to the two least offensive, then have a big, huge, promotional tour and campaign where the two finalists duke it out in entertaining ways on our monitors. I have dibs on all the advertising revenue. We can eradicate all other special interests this way and preserve the American way for the new age.
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post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-27-2008, 11:31 AM
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It's deja vu all over again. I feel as though I have read this somewhere before. The transcript below picks up about halfway through the interview with Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

April 27: Howard Dean, David Broder, John Dickerson, Gwen Ifill, Andrea Mitchell, Richard Wolffe - Meet the Press, online at MSNBC - MSNBC.com

'Meet the Press' transcript for April 27, 2008

...

MR. RUSSERT: ...Michigan and Florida. There is a report--reports that the Democratic National Committee is having a meeting on May 31st...

DR. DEAN: Right.

MR. RUSSERT: ...which may in fact say to Michigan and Florida, "Well, you broke the rules, you moved your primary dates up without permission, but we're going to give you half delegates, half your elected count, half your superdelegate count come, come convention time." Is that true?

DR. DEAN: Well, I don't know about the--what the Rules Committee's going to do. I have no idea what they're going to do. But here's the deal. First, you got to respect the voters. The voters of Michigan and Florida were not the people that screwed this all up, it was politicians. Secondly, you have to respect the candidates. They went in on a set of rules that everybody voted for, including Michigan and Florida, before they changed their mind, but--and so you can't really change the rules and alter the course of the race. And thirdly, you got to respect the 48 states that did respect the rules.

Here's why the rules are important. For the--this year, for the first time, we balanced the early primaries with ethnic and geographic diversity. We included a state from the South and a state from the West, because we think we can win there now. And we included states with significant numbers of minority groups who the Democrats can't win without, and those folks ought to be allowed to say early on who they think should be the president. Now along comes two states which steps on the process. You've got to deal with that in a fair way. So I don't know what the solution's going to be. The Rules Committee's going to start to work on that now as they prepare for the meeting at the end of May. But nobody will be satisfied with the outcome because nobody's going to get everything they want. What we strive is to be fair to the voters, fair to both campaigns, and fair to the other 48 states.

MR. RUSSERT: Former Governor Jim Blanchard of Michigan, who's a Clinton supporter, said the Democratic National Committee has handled the situation badly. "They have put their rules ahead of common sense, of electing a Democratic president, of voters in two major states. ... They're treating the rules like they're the U.S. Constitution or the Ten Commandments. They've lost their way."

DR. DEAN: Well, they were one of the two states out of the 50 that violated the rules. I'd kind of expect that from them.

MR. RUSSERT: But Michigan and Florida are swing states.

DR. DEAN: They're both very important states. That doesn't mean they're any more important than anybody else.

MR. RUSSERT: In fact, there were some meetings of delegates in Michigan, various conventions where Hillary Clinton is now lining up delegates, and, according to Congressman Blanchard, "We want to pick people who'll be loyal to Hillary, who would commit to her through multiple ballots." So Governor Blanchard of Michigan, former governor, is planning for, in effect, a multiple ballot convention.

DR. DEAN: Sure. I mean, I--look, everybody has a right to plan anything they want. My plan, as the chair of the DNC, is to try to get this resolved before we get to the convention. Because if you go into the convention divided, it's pretty likely you'll come out of the convention divided.

MR. RUSSERT: Without Michigan and Florida counting, as of now, people are saying, "Howard Dean should have handled this differently. He should have interceded and fixed this problem and not allowed us to come to a point where these two states feel dissed and it could hurt us in November."

DR. DEAN: Well, I mean, that--it wasn't my decision to make these changes. Florida and Michigan both voted for a set of rules, then they tried to push ahead of everybody else, and that makes it more difficult for everybody. We want to resolve this. This is not the voters' fault in Florida and Michigan. But the fact of the matter is that you have to--you cannot change the rules towards the end of the game just to advantage or disadvantage of a particular candidate. You can't do that.

MR. RUSSERT: But you decided not to seat the delegations, not count the primaries.

DR. DEAN: That's correct. Because they stepped on the minority groups and the small states in the South and the West that needed that time to have their primaries and have their early input.

Look, it's, it's--this is like having a, a line full of people waiting for something. If two of them jump the line and go to the front, it's not going to be long before you're going to have a riot. Don't forget, at the time these sanctions were passed by the Rules Committee, New Hampshire and Iowa were threatening to move into 2007. You've got to keep order, and that's part of my job is to keep order. It's understandable that the folks you call out because they think they're more important than everybody else are going to be upset about that. We did keep order, we do have an orderly process. I'll defend the process.

MR. RUSSERT: Will Michigan and Florida be seated?

DR. DEAN: Yes.

MR. RUSSERT: In some way, shape or form.

DR. DEAN: In some way. I'm determined to make that happen. I can't--again, I can't, I can't speak for what the rules committee will do. They're 30 very independent-minded people. I can't speak for what the credentials committee at the convention will do. I believe Michigan and Florida should be seated in some way because it was their--their voters did not cause this problem. This was caused by a political problem, not the voters' problem.

MR. RUSSERT: Seated and their delegates will vote for the presidential nominee?

DR. DEAN: I, that's what I hope will happen.

msnbc.com Video Player
Here's the video. The transcript from above comes in exactly at the 15:00 mark.

So through the whole interview, Dean says, "Rules rules rules" and then at the end he says "Yes" to the question, "Will Michigan and Florida be seated?" Then he waffles a bit and says, "... that's what I hope will happen."

As in.."I have "HOPE" that something will "CHANGE" in the "FUTURE". That's staying on point.

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post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-27-2008, 11:50 AM
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For what it's worth, Russert's method of questioning sometimes makes him look like he's afraid to offend.

"There is a report--reports..." and "...as of now, people are saying..."

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post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-27-2008, 12:45 PM
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post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-27-2008, 05:22 PM
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How are scheduling rules "liberal-think"??? They are either the rules or they are not. It was part of the procedural package. Not really something that one would intertwine with political dogma.

And what does "We are to judge them by their good intentions, not their results" even mean?
Wasn't it in 2000 when the mantra was, "let every vote count"? Then when the rules were enforced equally for all, the counting abruptly stopped.

HA!

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 04-27-2008, 06:11 PM
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How are scheduling rules "liberal-think"??? They are either the rules or they are not. It was part of the procedural package. Not really something that one would intertwine with political dogma.

And what does "We are to judge them by their good intentions, not their results" even mean?
The committed proportional delegate/superdelegate system was set in place by Bob Beckel and his posse in the late 80s to be fair to all Democrats.

Despite that good intention, what looms is a vote by the super delegates that will alienate one of the two major constituencies in June or a brokered convention in Denver that will do the same or worse, by choosing a third candidate, anger both of those constituencies in one fell swoop. You Dems will lose your black voters or your uneducated white women. Pick one or lose both. I'm enjoying the view. Good intentions, bad results.

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