Iranian mosque bombed - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 09:08 AM
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Botnst,

ابن سينا Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He's famous for being a polymath, especially a prominent physician in his times. Being a scholar in scientific fields of knowlege (medicine, math, physics, chemistry,..) and Islamic/theological fields of knowlege at the same time should give Von Vorsclag an idea about how both science and religion (I'm talking about Islam) can go hand in hand without ever clashing. I know from the little I learnt about Europe's history, that the defeat of the church paved way to the science-based industrial revolution. This never was the case with Islam. The decline of the Muslim civilisation was a result of a decline in Muslims' adherence to Islamic values and practices the way the beginning of the Islamic civilisation was initiated by the spread of Islam. The reasons are simple and clear and are part of our belief:

* We're asked to look around, think, reason and logically conclude. Anyone who ever read the Quran knows this for sure and is usually surprised how much this is emphasised and considered a form of worship.

* We (Shia definitely excluded) have no clergy/holy persons who have a right of adding/deletin/altering holy text. Therefore, science flourished and scientists wrote their findings without fear of prosecution, censorship or editting by any holy body.

* The Holy Quran has astonishing scientific hints but never claims to be a science text book; Religion comes from God but science is man's accomplishment. Please check out this link. (You have no internet censorship. You should take advantage of this ):
Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Especially these pages:
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , embryo
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , universe
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , cerebrum
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post #62 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 09:56 AM
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Well thank you Tahloube, I do appreciate your thoughts and links on this subject matter, however I am not ignorant of the Koran, and a surprise to yourself I'm sure, I have viewed in Morocco some of the oldest and most precious copies of this book and at the time viewed it with an open mind to possibilities of gaining a deeper wisdom, I have walked hand in hand with brothers who are muslims, over Mountains and across desserts, only to find that you need neither god nor man to show you the wonder of a flower or the depth of the stars. I do not now a days view any of these so called holy text with anything less than contempt having witnessed the results of these
doctrines . Superstition and fact are not compatible in my opinion. The intolerance to others within that book is intolerable itself and to be shunned and the doctrine to be mocked. The ban on incitement to “religious hatred” make no sense unless it involves a ban on the Koran itself.
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post #63 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Vorschlag View Post
A Jayhawk ! mmm well my personal opinion of Mr Jay is that he is a thoroughly decent person, and it's quite clear that it's yourself that doesn't have a clue Jack, and really if you think I'm here to help you sort out your lack of education and insight, you are sadly mistaken. Try and work something out for yourself for once and don't butt into my posts for Bot again like some fucking yapping fish wife that demands answers form people that despise you, They will only take the piss.

That's what I thought, thanks for confirming, you have no idea...............
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post #64 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahloube View Post
Botnst,

ابن سينا Avicenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He's famous for being a polymath, especially a prominent physician in his times. Being a scholar in scientific fields of knowlege (medicine, math, physics, chemistry,..) and Islamic/theological fields of knowlege at the same time should give Von Vorsclag an idea about how both science and religion (I'm talking about Islam) can go hand in hand without ever clashing. I know from the little I learnt about Europe's history, that the defeat of the church paved way to the science-based industrial revolution. This never was the case with Islam. The decline of the Muslim civilisation was a result of a decline in Muslims' adherence to Islamic values and practices the way the beginning of the Islamic civilisation was initiated by the spread of Islam. The reasons are simple and clear and are part of our belief:

* We're asked to look around, think, reason and logically conclude. Anyone who ever read the Quran knows this for sure and is usually surprised how much this is emphasised and considered a form of worship.

* We (Shia definitely excluded) have no clergy/holy persons who have a right of adding/deletin/altering holy text. Therefore, science flourished and scientists wrote their findings without fear of prosecution, censorship or editting by any holy body.

* The Holy Quran has astonishing scientific hints but never claims to be a science text book; Religion comes from God but science is man's accomplishment. Please check out this link. (You have no internet censorship. You should take advantage of this ):
Islam Guide: A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam, Muslims, & the Quran

Especially these pages:
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , embryo
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , universe
A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran , cerebrum
With respect, I am not going to engage in a discussion of whether or not this or that religion is the true path and so forth. To me, it is an unfalsifiable proposition and thus, a waste of time to me.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #65 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
With respect, I am not going to engage in a discussion of whether or not this or that religion is the true path and so forth. To me, it is an unfalsifiable proposition and thus, a waste of time to me.

B


Lighten up!
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post #66 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 01:17 PM
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Von Vorschlag,

I appreciate your reply but I'd like to comment on two points.

First, don't you think it's a bit harsh to judge religion by the misconduct of some of its followers? You say:

Quote:
..I do not now a days view any of these so called holy text with anything less than contempt having witnessed the results of these doctrines..
I'd like to bring your attention to a point I raised before. The fact that the Muslim civilization was built on the very teachings of Islamic holy texts. Maybe you don't think an old civilization is worthy of mention in today's world but I think it was so great that it's worth of even more analysis especially nowadays. To have a civilization so big, so vast and most importantly so humane (even to animals and trees) at those old, savage times is just astonishing and it was the result of one set of religious doctrine.

Quote:
..The intolerance to others within that book is intolerable itself and to be shunned and the doctrine to be mocked..
Second, I invite you to take another close, critical look at this idea by reading each and every aya/verse that you think incites intolerance in its context. You'll find it's about how to retaliate in case of war. (I didn't read the Quran once or twice, I have learned it all by heart, all 604 pages.) Unlike Christianity, Muslims are not told to turn the other cheek but to retaliate in self-defence (I think the same idea exits in Judaism, too) which is very understandable, very clear and sends the right message: Don't miss with me because I'm not an easy hunt. Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, accepted all offers of truce/peace but never showed a weak side when attacked. Very unpretentious and very non-hypocritical. In Islam, we're told never to judge people because it's not our job, it's God's. And the main rule is clearly stated here: "‏لَآ إِكْرَاهَ فِى ٱلدِّينِ"
(2:256) Translation of the meaning: Let there be no compulsion in religion

Thanks for reading.
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post #67 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 03:48 AM
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Tahloube

"I'd like to bring your attention to a point I raised before. The fact that the Muslim civilization was built on the very teachings of Islamic holy texts. Maybe you don't think an old civilization is worthy of mention in today's world but I think it was so great that it's worth of even more analysis especially nowadays. To have a civilization so big, so vast and most importantly so humane (even to animals and trees) at those old, savage times is just astonishing and it was the result of one set of religious doctrine".

From a historical perspective,in addition to Isamic influence the empires of Greece,Rome and Britain have had a profound,and most would argue positive impact on western culture.However,few would advocate a return to any of those eras.We exist in the post-enlightenment 21st century.Why do you want to live in the past?
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post #68 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 05:50 AM
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It's not living in the past that I advocate but rather learning from the past. Islamic civilisation was very humane, very tolerant of different ethnic and religious groups living side by side in a way that we can learn from even in the 21st century.
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post #69 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 07:13 AM
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IMO in the religious context you refer to not to turn the other cheek when one has been wronged is to play god yourself and to judge a man and to dish out your own punishment !, for example with the Jew, do you love Jews because they are human and only despise the bad ones ..no all get painted with the same bush by Islam, you call them pigs, and independent female news journalist that have been beheaded in Iraqi , was it left for Allah to judge them at the end of their days? No they were hacked to death for being American, not evil Americans killing and eating babies for fun but just news staff, as like the twin towers, it mattered not to Islam who is wrong or right as long as westerners died. As Mc Bear stated 99% of muslins are not terrorists but those same 99% will not denounce the violence and crimes of these few bad apples among them ( not quite as few as you may wish I dare say ), why because of the fear of them.
So what happened to this humane and very tolerant Islam ? , it beat down the brutish ottomans only to in turn become what it over came, very sad. I have how ever seen in Singapore a comfortable co-existence among the faiths under a tight lead, but go north to Thailand and Muslim is killing innocent Buddhists go south and the Muslim Indonesians happily kill the natives of the islands, I won't even go to the dufar to prove the point.
Maybe you’re the last of the good guys Tahoube with love in your heart rather than hate ?, but munāfiq like Robert do little to spread positive influence of your faith.
Von
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post #70 of 101 (permalink) Old 04-17-2008, 11:46 AM
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