It Is A Sign the Bush Administration Policies Were Morally Corrupt and Likely Illegal - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 11:38 AM
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There is lots of precedent for ex-convicts,pedophiles,fugitives etc. fleeing to places in the Far East in an attempt to escape attention or continue their dubious practices in relative obscurity.They tend to hold on to their original passports,but rarely if ever return to their home country.

I can't imagine why you are so sensitive on this subject...........

There you go Gravy, shift it baby, or at least try. I have been up front on here as to who I am where I live, where and when I was born shit I guess they are right, hide in plain sight..................

So Gravy, what dubious practice (besides responding to your posts) am I guilty of, do tell.............
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 11:39 AM
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There is lots of precedent for ex-convicts,pedophiles,fugitives etc. fleeing to places in the Far East in an attempt to escape attention or continue their dubious practices in relative obscurity.They tend to hold on to their original passports,but rarely if ever return to their home country.
I think the difference in this case is that neither Bush nor Cheney feel they've done anything that they need to escape. They are proud of the decisions they've made, and there is a significant portion of the population that supports their decisions and choices. When you combine that with the fact that they are exceptionally wealthy and are connected to numerous power brokers, they have no need to hide anywhere. It is tough to say the same thing about pedophiles, etc.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 11:43 AM
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I think the difference in this case is that neither Bush nor Cheney feel they've done anything that they need to escape. They are proud of the decisions they've made, and there is a significant portion of the population that supports their decisions and choices. When you combine that with the fact that they are exceptionally wealthy and are connected to numerous power brokers, they have no need to hide anywhere. It is tough to say the same thing about pedophiles, etc.
Yeah they just stay in Texas and Utah and join a religious cult....................

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 11:59 AM
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There you go Gravy, shift it baby, or at least try. I have been up front on here as to who I am where I live, where and when I was born shit I guess they are right, hide in plain sight..................

So Gravy, what dubious practice (besides responding to your posts) am I guilty of, do tell.............

I admire your honesty.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 12:53 PM
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And if you bothered to read what I post regarding the severely disappointing performance of the now Democratic majority in Congress to change the course we are on by putting an end to Bush's policies, you might have skipped that comment. But, regardless, even you have acknowledged in your post that they are Bush's policies. And therefore, when they go bad, Bush deserves the blame. He deserves it because he invented the policy and then manipulated facts to have the policy implemented, a policy in Iraq that is becoming ever more apparent as a gross failure on all fronts that is also becoming ever more difficult to extract us from - it is blame he earned with all his hard work late at night in those meetings he had hoped would remain secret.
Jim it’s truly disappointing that you can’t find anything new in ways to condemn Bush and his Cabinet. The Democrat controlled Congress has had almost two years to do something but have failed miserably in every attempt, why is that? You have pointed out that Bush has had failed policies, and without any regard as to whether or not that is true, why is it that the Democrat controlled Congress cannot or will not do anything to change that? They clearly have the majority and yet they still can’t get their act together. Maybe it's because they know more than you do, and can see furter than just a few feet in front of their collective noses..................
Shame on them, they deserve even more blame than he does, they were elected (according to the left) to stop him and they have donelittle or nothing.

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As for torture, you are right. When things become personal it is tempting to break the law. But those of us who have been raised to respect the law resist the temptation. No excuses exist for a policy that breaks laws and international treaties we have signed. Especially not twisting the arms of appointees in the Justice Department to concoct baseless memos that are subsequently hidden from Congress and the American people that supposedly provide a legal basis for such actions, when those memos are withdrawn once revealed.
So it’s only “tempting” to you to save your family if their lives depended on torture of another, or did I misunderstand? Are you saying that your “respect for the law” would force you to let your family die while the terrorist laughed in your face? Please Jim, I’ll go along with a lot of nonsense, but even coming from you that sounds bazaar.

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Yes, it is understandable to identify with an individual in a situation as you described it, and it is a far different situation entirely when the national policy is to give in to the temptation to break laws and treaties. We like to believe we are the leader of the free world, the benchmark for human rights, pioneering the concepts of religious freedom, the equality of all regardless of race or sex. It is amazing that Americans can be spoofed into believing torture is not a violation of those themes of our Constitution, and that all Americans don't see the conflict touting one set of ideals to the world, while acting as though they didn't exist creates. It is the epitome of crass hypocrisy.
I can tell you one thing Jim, If I were (and I’ll bet most here feel the same, if they admit it or not) to find out that someone had a prisoner that knew a city was to be bombed and didn’t get that information out of them before the event and failed to save even one life, they would have to pay for that with theirs. That is the way it has always been, and that as far as I’m concerned is the way it should be. I DO NOT advocate torture at every level or for no reason, and never have, but if required I have no hesitation. You may call that hypocrisy, I call it self defense.

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Attorney-client privilege is appropriate for your personal legal affairs. The Justice Department, or, more specific, the United States Attorney General, should not be asked to use his office to protect the President on matters of policy. All Presidents should be aware they are not allowed to circumvent or break the law, or treaties the United States has signed, with American domestic and international policy. I don't see the attorney-client privilege as applicable here. Not when it is about the business of performing the duty of the office of the President, governing the American people. Citing attorney-client privilege is tantamount to admitting the policy was illegal.
So what you’re saying is that he is guilty until proven innocent? Funny, but it seems to me just a few paragraphs above you said you had “respect for the law”. What happened to all that “respect”, does it only apply to you and yours?

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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Jim it’s truly disappointing that you can’t find anything new in ways to condemn Bush and his Cabinet. The Democrat controlled Congress has had almost two years to do something but have failed miserably in every attempt, why is that? You have pointed out that Bush has had failed policies, and without any regard as to whether or not that is true, why is it that the Democrat controlled Congress cannot or will not do anything to change that? They clearly have the majority and yet they still can’t get their act together. Maybe it's because they know more than you do, and can see furter than just a few feet in front of their collective noses..................
Shame on them, they deserve even more blame than he does, they were elected (according to the left) to stop him and they have donelittle or nothing.
I will color code my responses to make things clear for the readers.

The Bush Administration has done little more than labor under the blunder of their first 6 years in power as it has occupied nearly all of their effort to keep the spin machine operating with data that suggests reality is not what anyone else perceives it is. Also, given the last year (15 months, not two years) has been with an admittedly relatively ineffective Democratic majority, even that slight bit of added resistance has stymied efforts to implement further blunders. So, the up to date, current information is, Bush has established a new low approval rating with the American people. And it is based on his handling of the nation's business, not that he has eyes too close together, or says dumb things all the time. It is because the American people have concluded after 7 years and 3 months, that he is a loser.

While it is likely those in Congress know more about the issues they vote on than me, the fundamental lack of follow through on the campaign promises is very frustrating. If they are changing their minds about something it would be helpful to have an explanation. Instead what we see is a Democratic Party that is a much more loosely tied together political entity. While that in and of itself should be a positive characteristic as it allows other than party politics to be front and center for each elected official, the failure to force Bush to as a minimum address Congress himself and explain his policies, justify his decisions and work in accordance with the Constitution instead of against it, is very disappointing. Instead they let him have a good General do his dirty work and get his good name dragged through the mud for his Iraq policy.

Really bad logic there Bruce. That is like saying the fact that your house burned down is the fault of the fire department being unable to put it out, instead of the arsonist who set it on fire.


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So it’s only “tempting” to you to save your family if their lives depended on torture of another, or did I misunderstand? Are you saying that your “respect for the law” would force you to let your family die while the terrorist laughed in your face? Please Jim, I’ll go along with a lot of nonsense, but even coming from you that sounds bazaar.
No, it is not bizarre. It is realistic. I am not about to suggest that it is even remotely within the scope of possibility that I am going to track down and beat the truth out of someone involved in harming a family member. It is not in my skillset for one, and I am not so stupid as to believe I could succeed if it were. It is something the police would be involved with, as I am not a vigilante either. And I very much doubt it would be perceived as anything but "tempting" to them based on my pleas, even if I were inclined to make such pleas.

Your example also misses the point. I am against a policy of allowing torture under any circumstances. The situation you so vividly describe and get yourself worked up about does not happen in real life. Citizens do not find out about terrorists about to murder their wives and kids, and then get the chance to beat the truth out of them, so it is ludicrous to base policy on such a hypothetical situation. Things that can happen only in your imagination are not good things to base policy on - I hope that is clear to you. Your situation also likely has never happened in real life, with real soldiers in real circumstances. You watch too much 24. Exciting show, but not an accurate depiction of any 24 hour period in all of our history. Not a single season.

American policy should reflect what we stand for, and my version of America doesn't allow torture as a matter of policy.



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I can tell you one thing Jim, If I were (and I’ll bet most here feel the same, if they admit it or not) to find out that someone had a prisoner that knew a city was to be bombed and didn’t get that information out of them before the event and failed to save even one life, they would have to pay for that with theirs. That is the way it has always been, and that as far as I’m concerned is the way it should be. I DO NOT advocate torture at every level or for no reason, and never have, but if required I have no hesitation. You may call that hypocrisy, I call it self defense.
Now, this is a slight modification, and I am not sure I understand you. Are you saying the person interrogating the suspect should be killed if they fail to extract the information they were looking for in time to prevent the terror attack? Seems odd, and unbalanced. I cannot support that.

But if it is the suspect, who is found guilty of being a contributor or part of the conspiracy that spawned the attack, well, once convicted the shitbird should be punished. If that is the death penalty, so be it. I am ok with that. If you are advocating vigilantism, well I am not ok with that. If you can't make the case in court that the suspect is guilty, you have no business killing him on your own.

People in combat are another thing. They are engaged in killing or being killed. Calls for all kinds of people with all kinds of backgrounds and skill sets to make all kinds of decisions in split seconds in all kinds of circumstances. That breeds all kinds of results. I have a lot more room for definition of what is within the rules there, but torture isn't one as a matter of policy.

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So what you’re saying is that he is guilty until proven innocent? Funny, but it seems to me just a few paragraphs above you said you had “respect for the law”. What happened to all that “respect”, does it only apply to you and yours?
No, I am saying if he, while acting as the President while doing the business of leading the American people had the Justice Department prepare memos at his direction that were used to justify implementing a policy that violated our laws and our Constitution, he has no rights to hide such documentation from the public, and especially not using the resources at his disposal that are provided to him by the American public. I think that is pretty clear and simple.

If he is acting as a private citizen, not engaged in executing his duties as the President and gets caught, say, getting blow job and his wife sues him for divorce, then he gets the same rights we all get in his dispute with his soon to be ex-wife. Or he gets caught shoplifting. Or stealing booze from a liquor store. You get the picture.

The work of the agencies being paid for by the taxpayer are not owned by the President, even if they prepared them at his behest. They belong to the taxpayers. The rules for their disclosure should be no different than any other papers prepared by a government agency or contractor to a government agency. The product belongs to the American people. The President may have used it, or not. But the product belongs to us. The President and the Attorney General have no business denying access to the documents when asked by Congress.

Jim
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 08:32 PM
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bazaar
Must be from the school of "No child left behind". Were you first, or last in your class?

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 08:51 PM
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The President's Administration is now suffering from the previous 7 years of arrogant disregard for the Constitution of the United States, in violation of the oaths taken to uphold that document when sworn into office, disregard for the laws of the land, long standing agreements to abide by international treaties and laws, and their dependence on the silence of those they involved as the nation expresses its profound distaste for the dishonorable road they have diverted America's history onto in that 7 plus years. The lies and spin are beginning to unravel.

Bush's approval rating hit a new, all time low: AP Poll: Bush Public Approval at New Low - Politics on The Huffington Post

The corrupt strong arming of the Justice Department is becoming ever more clear as the roles of White House inner circle in providing direction to the CIA for torture is revealed. Give the CIA credit for understanding what kind of slime Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and others are, and their tactics to get these people on record as understanding their subsequent direction to violate domestic and international laws, and then give explicit direction for the same. That they hid behind memos from that sham of a Justice Department, memos that have subsequently been withdrawn, as the legal basis for their actions makes it evident how dictatorial and anti the Constitution (balance of power) this cabal of dirballs is:

Cheney, Others OK'd Harsh Interrogations - Politics on The Huffington Post

Mukasy is now holding back the last straw. A 2001 secret memo to the President's Administration is being held back citing attorney-client privilege. I think the concept of the POTUS citing attorney-client privilege to hide a document used to define US national and international policy is bizarre. He is an elected official. His decisions affect all Americans and often many citizens of the world. Unless there is a national security question, all such documents should be required to be publicly released. If national security is involved, it should be required to be released to the appropriate Senate and House members with the appropriate clearances and need to know, as with all other classified data.

This is not going to end well. Jim
Absolutely eloquently stated.

The absolute truth is that the Republicans have tied themselves to this war.
Starting with the Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz/Rice/Rove etc. cabal it was theirs.

When the public gets sick of it and by now it is pretty certain that it has - the Republicans will get the blame

It is killing this country. People are sick of the deaths, injuries, double speak, lies, torturing, COST, and the whole thing. The thing lies at the feet of those who put the Republican party agenda AHEAD of what is GOOD for the country.

And lets not forget the arms manufacturers, defense contractors, security contractors and Big Oil are getting richer off this, they are the only ones who would love this to continue for 1,000 more years.

Unless they move away from it they will get hammered in the next election.

It is easy to forget that there is a minority of die hard party-first Republicans
in Congress

There are just ENOUGH of them still around to BLOCK the impeachment of the cabal of traitors inhabiting the White House

If they were removed from office, by elections, Impeachment and Removal could be swift and sure.

Since they have not been, the Bush administration has ensured the horrible war will be handed off to the next President.

Since McCain has tied his future to that albatross, it is unlikely he will get the Presidency no matter what else happens.

The Neocons are about to be consigned to the ash heap of history. Their legacy is that have irreedemably screwed things up.

Good riddance to the lot of them.

Jim
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-12-2008, 08:51 AM
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Maybe Bush,Cheney and co. will quietly move out of the country,to the Far East perhaps,in an attempt to distance themselves from their nefarious past and escape the hue and cry of American justice.They wil of course maintain their American passports.
And join BWOT to post loonie left dribble?

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