Glenn Beck Stumbles Headlong Into Irrelevancy - Page 8 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #71 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 08:13 PM
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...........
(I'm really not into giving 11 figure incentives to companies making 12 figure profits, btw, I just see JH getting his butt kicked, and thought he needed a new argument. He's correct in his assessment of who pays the tax in the end).
JH is being quite generous to the oil companies - maybe his team doing well in Texas tonight is his payback. But, Ed, without a doubt the oil companies are paying the lowest taxes they can. Which is likely much lower than they should be paying. But with all that influence and "fuck you money" in their resource chest, they get away with it. Doesn't make it any more "right" than the incentives being doled out to them. Jim
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post #72 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 08:26 PM
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I agree with Bot's conclusion on this post above. I think you are making the creative difference between a plain skeptic and an experienced skeptic armed with good skills, like ability to observe and recognize patterns in the noise of everyday life amplified by those with the requisite resources, your distinction between a skeptic and a cynic. While a cynic can serve a purpose, I would rather have the talented and dedicated skeptic on my team. Jim
I agree the differences are not that spread from a "experienced skeptic" to a cynic. But I still think that a cynical view [and after just looking at 12 different definitions of cynic I can see where confusion might occur] is really just a more subjective, experienced view than that of a skeptic [nine different definitions] which tends to doubt or question a state or premise but does not have the added element of questioning virtue or morals based on experience [ala the Cynics].

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post #73 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 08:30 PM
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JH is being quite generous to the oil companies - maybe his team doing well in Texas tonight is his payback. But, Ed, without a doubt the oil companies are paying the lowest taxes they can. Which is likely much lower than they should be paying. But with all that influence and "fuck you money" in their resource chest, they get away with it. Doesn't make it any more "right" than the incentives being doled out to them. Jim
Yes, they have considerably more clout than they should have, I agree. Quite a pickle for a clandestine libertarian like myself. But, do they really pay taxes when it is a pass-through? I read Bear's post about foriegn companies providing some regulation on how much they could raise their price to pay the tax and compete, but I really don't see that having an effect. I think that a careful examination and application of anti-trust laws would be the only possible avenue, but I don't see that happening.

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post #74 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 08:38 PM
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Wonder how much they pay in taxes? Wonder how much tax is added later . . . ? Hmmm . . . I bet Bear knows, it would be relevant.

I thought, also, that part of an energy policy was to encourage those things that made energy consistently available and as cheap as it could be. Not too long ago, energy prices were wildly affected by a natural disaster (Katrina), mainly due to the momentary loss of significant refining capability, and I thought the government offered incentives to the energy companies to encourage diversification (ie - build a few of them somewhere else). If an energy company really doesn't have to take actions such as those to increase profits, should the government encourage it by way of incentives in order to limit volatility?

(I'm really not into giving 11 figure incentives to companies making 12 figure profits, btw, I just see JH getting his butt kicked, and thought he needed a new argument. He's correct in his assessment of who pays the tax in the end).
Here are the 2006 numbers for our good friends at Exxon Mobil.

2006
Earnings BEFORE Taxes: $67.4 Billion
2006 Taxes: $27.9 Billion
Profits AFTER Taxes: $39.5 Billion

In 2007 they paid a smidge more in taxes at $40 Billion but the Earnings and Profit numbers are not listed for some reason.

Exxon's 2007 Tax Bill: $30 Billion - Seeking Alpha

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post #75 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 08:40 PM
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Man, so they pay roughly 40% in tax? Seems adequate to me.

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post #76 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 09:17 PM
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Man, so they pay roughly 40% in tax? Seems adequate to me.
Technically, they collect it from us and pass it along.

Since that is an increase in taxes, and everyone that drives contributes, wonder how Bush figures that into his "tax cuts for 'Merkins?

Seems to me, with gas prices going up 224% in the past 7 years that all us taxpayers that buy gasoline have been hit with this tax increase on the 41.5% that Exxon pays on Profits for the entire time.


But I thought Bushie CUT our taxes???

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post #77 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 09:46 PM
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I think you guys are using the same set of numbers, you're using the average, he's using the largest.
I noticed that, too. McBare ignored the word "average" deliberately and to his peril in his argument.

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post #78 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 10:15 PM
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Technically, they collect it from us and pass it along.

Since that is an increase in taxes, and everyone that drives contributes, wonder how Bush figures that into his "tax cuts for 'Merkins?

Seems to me, with gas prices going up 224% in the past 7 years that all us taxpayers that buy gasoline have been hit with this tax increase on the 41.5% that Exxon pays on Profits for the entire time.


But I thought Bushie CUT our taxes???
I've warned you before, McBare. You are on thin ice discussing taxation. Do your homework and tell us which taxes President Bush and Congress cut: personal income, corporate income, capital gains, inheritance taxes, excise taxes, AMT taxes or the various credits for such things as Solar, ITC, R&D,etc. You guys griping about "Big Oil" couldn't do what it takes to deliver a drop of fuel if it were a brown spot on your hand. I think we are fortunate to have companies that have such phenomenal expertise and sophistication; Glenn Beck has it just right.

There's an ad playing in this radio market (I believe from the Petroleum Institute???) that asserts 41% of us hold oil and gas company stocks in our portfolios. If that's true, you better damn well hope those companies make a profit.

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post #79 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 10:48 PM
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I've warned you before, McBare. You are on thin ice discussing taxation. Do your homework and tell us which taxes President Bush and Congress cut: personal income, corporate income, capital gains, inheritance taxes, excise taxes, AMT taxes or the various credits for such things as Solar, ITC, R&D,etc. You guys griping about "Big Oil" couldn't do what it takes to deliver a drop of fuel if it were a brown spot on your hand. I think we are fortunate to have companies that have such phenomenal expertise and sophistication; Glenn Beck has it just right.

There's an ad playing in this radio market (I believe from the Petroleum Institute???) that asserts 41% of us hold oil and gas company stocks in our portfolios. If that's true, you better damn well hope those companies make a profit.
There was a time when big oil actually had "such phenomenal expertise and sophistication" but I think you should take a good look at those companies today. Not too long ago they owned their own technical support and engineering services organizations, from basic R&D through interfacing with the consumer operations. Not today.

Nearly all of the basic mechanical, civil, electrical and environmental engineering skills that were the source of corporate pride in the past are outsourced today. Any operation with perceived risk is outsourced. The actual skills being retained are financial and business administration skills - everything else is either rented or licensed, including facilities and plant design technology. Because the MBA school guy running things, with no field experience or direct knowledge of the systems involved, has found it makes more money and lowers risk if there is a disaster. So, there was a time when your adoration of these companies might have been warranted. When you speak of them today, they are no longer the capable organizations they once were - much like the nuclear industry, they have atrophied to a point where they are hollowed out shells of their former selves. Unlike the nuclear industry, they are presently making more money than at any time in their histories.

Of all the oil companies, I think ExxonMobil has actually applied some lessons learned to the concept of safety in all phases of operations in which they are a player. But that does not erase the responsibility for the damages they inflicted with the oil spill in Alaska. Jim
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post #80 of 185 (permalink) Old 04-05-2008, 10:59 PM
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Yes, they have considerably more clout than they should have, I agree. Quite a pickle for a clandestine libertarian like myself. But, do they really pay taxes when it is a pass-through? I read Bear's post about foriegn companies providing some regulation on how much they could raise their price to pay the tax and compete, but I really don't see that having an effect. I think that a careful examination and application of anti-trust laws would be the only possible avenue, but I don't see that happening.
There is nothing unique about the accounting for taxes by oil companies vs. any other enterprise. It must be included in any pricing strategy or you run the risk of going broke. But, if there were no taxes on oil company profits, I doubt the price of gas for the consumer would reflect a 40% discount.

Taxes paid as a percentage of profits is only as fair as the tax laws require, and the honesty of the books. And oil companies have lots of investment liabilities on the books, with lots of opportunities to "exploit" their position of strength when dealing with the elected officials and civil servants that make up our government as the rules are written by one group and interpreted by other. Jim
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