Glenn Beck Stumbles Headlong Into Irrelevancy - Page 15 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #141 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 05:03 PM
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By the way, how's my 401K doing?

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #142 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 06:32 PM
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Anybody who turns a profit should have it confiscated for the good of the people!

B

Well considering that the government already gets 48% of their profit, where else should it go? Should the government raise the taxes, I mean we all know how effcient the govt. is at redistributing wealth. We all want free health care and 401ks to do well, right?

My Car WOO HOO...... Now SOLD
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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
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post #143 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 07:18 PM
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What if Hillary and Obama threatened to nationalize the profits of both Apple and Starbucks?
While nationalization should not be even thought of unless national security [that would be economic security in this case] is compromised, neither Starbucks nor Apple are required commodities for everyone to do their job, go to work, deliver food, deliver commerce.

In other words, if you were to pick some companies where the analogy fit, then you might have a question. As it is, you don't.

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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #144 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
While nationalization should not be even thought of unless national security [that would be economic security in this case] is compromised, neither Starbucks nor Apple are required commodities for everyone to do their job, go to work, deliver food, deliver commerce.

In other words, if you were to pick some companies where the analogy fit, then you might have a question. As it is, you don't.
That's an interesting way of looking at private enterprise . . . so you're saying it would be OK for the government to nationalize a private enterprise should they decide that national security is threatened? What part of the COTUS says they can?

Isn't this the same forum that the far reaches of GWB's grabs for power have been lauded? Didn't he say, before he started this wire-tapping thing, that national security was at risk (or something like that)?

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post #145 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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I'm no fan of nationalization...I'm a fan of retrieving the oil beneath our own lands, within our own shores. I'm also a fan of clarifying the definition of a "commodity", so that oil and gasoline delivery contracts are no longer traded speculatively. Entities shouldn't be allowed to buy oil or gasoline unless they will be taking physical custody of it prior to reselling it.

(I keep trying definitions on for size, we'll see how that one fits)
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post #146 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 08:19 PM
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I'm no fan of nationalization...I'm a fan of retrieving the oil beneath our own lands, within our own shores. I'm also a fan of clarifying the definition of a "commodity", so that oil and gasoline delivery contracts are no longer traded speculatively. Entities shouldn't be allowed to buy oil or gasoline unless they will be taking physical custody of it prior to reselling it.

(I keep trying definitions on for size, we'll see how that one fits)
WHAT?

That is a step back into the middle ages and barter. The whole point of capitalism is to allow the trading of goods and services on an equal and fair basis without having to take physical possession of the item traded.

You have a 401K or other retirement instrument? Do you want physical possession of your share of each company that you own? Where shall I put your 3/4 of a cow, your airplane wheel, your 0.8 acres of forest and your 20 barrels of crude??

The more we allow interference in free agency the more unfair it becomes.

The way to encourage freedom is by encouraging freedom. Anything else is the opposite.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #147 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
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Pay attention to this point, because it's very important:

The WHOLE WORLD runs on oil. Cargo ships, airplanes, delivery trucks, and the personal & public transportation you and I use. We heat our homes with it in the winter. It is utterly unlike any other commodity you can name, because of the fact that price fluctuations impact EVERYONE, in very real & measurable ways.

EVERYONE living in a country that does not control the price of oil is experiencing inflation in every imaginable way. The cost of food, transport to their jobs, cost of goods & services - it's inextricably linked to huge portions of everyone's lives.

So, when some greedy asshole decides "Hey, I'll buy this thing because I think it will be worth more later, even though I couldn't possibly ever use it," everyone gets fucked a little. Multiply that little by millions of people, and you've shot the market system in the head with a howitzer.

Demand is created when someone needs a product for their own use. I don't mind demand affecting the price of a given resource. At issue is the ability of a very few, ridiculously wealthy organizations ability to buy in such large & frequent quantities that they represent both false/artificial demand, and the ability to fix prices. There's nothing free or fair about that system. It needs to be addressed.

A real free market is not something that can be absolutely dominated by an abundance of wealth. If you want to buy millions of barrels of oil and sit on them until they're worth more, you'd fuck an a better have a place to keep them. Anything less is predatory and opportunistic.
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post #148 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by edfreeman View Post
That's an interesting way of looking at private enterprise . . . so you're saying it would be OK for the government to nationalize a private enterprise should they decide that national security is threatened? What part of the COTUS says they can?

Isn't this the same forum that the far reaches of GWB's grabs for power have been lauded? Didn't he say, before he started this wire-tapping thing, that national security was at risk (or something like that)?
All United States railroads were nationalized as the United States Railroad Administration during World War I as a wartime measure but were returned to their private owners almost immediately after the war.

The National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) was a government-owned corporation created in 1971 for the express purpose of relieving American railroads of their legal obligation to provide inter-city rail service. They were trying to get out of this obligation anyway, but by taking over their passenger rail assets, Amtrak was able to keep the passenger trains running.

In 1976 the Consolidated Rail Corporation (Conrail), another government corporation, was created to take over the operations of six bankrupt rail lines operating primarily in the Northeastern United States; Conrail was privatized in 1987. Initial plans for Conrail would have made it a truly nationalized system like that during World War I, but an alternate proposal by the Association of American Railroads won out.

Organization of the Tennessee Valley Authority entailed the nationalization of the facilities of the former Tennessee Electric Power Company in 1939.

In 2001, in response to the September 11th attacks, the then-private airport security industry was nationalized and put under the authority of the Transportation Security Administration.

Need I go on to point out the nationalization of the higher levels of our banking system, the nationalization of mortgage security insurance, the nationalization of deposit insurance, or is that enough?

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #149 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
All United States railroads were nationalized as the United States Railroad Administration during World War I as a wartime measure but were returned to their private owners almost immediately after the war.

The National Railroad Passenger Corporation (Amtrak) was a government-owned corporation created in 1971 for the express purpose of relieving American railroads of their legal obligation to provide inter-city rail service. They were trying to get out of this obligation anyway, but by taking over their passenger rail assets, Amtrak was able to keep the passenger trains running.

In 1976 the Consolidated Rail Corporation (Conrail), another government corporation, was created to take over the operations of six bankrupt rail lines operating primarily in the Northeastern United States; Conrail was privatized in 1987. Initial plans for Conrail would have made it a truly nationalized system like that during World War I, but an alternate proposal by the Association of American Railroads won out.

Organization of the Tennessee Valley Authority entailed the nationalization of the facilities of the former Tennessee Electric Power Company in 1939.

In 2001, in response to the September 11th attacks, the then-private airport security industry was nationalized and put under the authority of the Transportation Security Administration.

Need I go on to point out the nationalization of the higher levels of our banking system, the nationalization of mortgage security insurance, the nationalization of deposit insurance, or is that enough?
I remember a thing in the COTUS that says the government can do that banking thing, but can't quite recall the clause about nationalizing stuff. How would those examples compare to nationalization of the oil companies? And, does this mean that you, too, would favor that nationalization? What if GWB got really pissed at them after he discovers (listening to their cell phone conversations) they've been screwing us on purpose and issued an executive order seizing them all, would that please you?

Pretty slippery slope, if you ask me.

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post #150 of 185 (permalink) Old 05-01-2008, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
Pay attention to this point, because it's very important:

The WHOLE WORLD runs on oil. Cargo ships, airplanes, delivery trucks, and the personal & public transportation you and I use. We heat our homes with it in the winter. It is utterly unlike any other commodity you can name, because of the fact that price fluctuations impact EVERYONE, in very real & measurable ways.

EVERYONE living in a country that does not control the price of oil is experiencing inflation in every imaginable way. The cost of food, transport to their jobs, cost of goods & services - it's inextricably linked to huge portions of everyone's lives.

So, when some greedy asshole decides "Hey, I'll buy this thing because I think it will be worth more later, even though I couldn't possibly ever use it," everyone gets fucked a little. Multiply that little by millions of people, and you've shot the market system in the head with a howitzer.

Demand is created when someone needs a product for their own use. I don't mind demand affecting the price of a given resource. At issue is the ability of a very few, ridiculously wealthy organizations ability to buy in such large & frequent quantities that they represent both false/artificial demand, and the ability to fix prices. There's nothing free or fair about that system. It needs to be addressed.

A real free market is not something that can be absolutely dominated by an abundance of wealth. If you want to buy millions of barrels of oil and sit on them until they're worth more, you'd fuck an a better have a place to keep them. Anything less is predatory and opportunistic.
Welcome to the world. I trust speculative markets far more than governments.

Why?

The entire sweep of human history is replete with misery caused by well-meaning (and otherwise) governments squabbling over resources. It's always something, isn't it?

Compare the history of country with open markets with countries with closed markets. Which has brought greater misery on the people?

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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