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post #31 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
6. Increased federalism (as opposed to national government supremacy)?


Of those, where do I depart from libertarian belief?


B
Ha, this administration (of which you're so obviously enamored) has pursued executive privilege on steroids, thwarting open public access and any and all attempts at oversight by the other two branches of gov. This is the most anti-Libertarian government since that great liberal icon, Nixon...and still orders of magnitude more so.

Oh, and your support for the Iraq fiasco essentially voids nearly all the other libertarian "virtues" since it tramples and makes a travesty of each. Your libertarian cred is less than zero
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post #32 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Ha, this administration (of which you're so obviously enamored) has pursued executive privilege on steroids, thwarting open public access and any and all attempts at oversight by the other two branches of gov. This is the most anti-Libertarian government since that great liberal icon, Nixon...and still orders of magnitude more so.

Oh, and your support for the Iraq fiasco essentially voids nearly all the other libertarian "virtues" since it tramples and makes a travesty of each. Your libertarian cred is less than zero
Like I said, the only 2 things this administration has done that I support are Iraq and the tax break. Aside from that, I'm with you on the stuff you mention above.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #33 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:00 PM
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In your staunch, consistent support for all things Bush, who on an authoritarian scale of 1 to 10, rates about a 9.6 (being generous). Less authoritarian = more libertarian.
I enumerated the 2 things that I agree with done in this administration. I listed a number of items with which I disagree. You carefully ingnore them to advance an argument without merit.

When reasonable discourse eludes you, shoot from the lip.
----------------------------------
Back on the subject, What is it that Obama offers that represents libertarianism?

I'll give you a hint as to what most libertarians subscribe to.

1. Open markets?
2. Reduced government intervention in business?
3. Reduced government intervention in the lives of citizens?
4. Free trade?
5. Reduced taxes?
6. Increased federalism (as opposed to national government supremacy)?
7. Privatization of social security?
8. 2nd Amendment support?
9. Legalized drugs?
10. Legalized sex trade?
11. Reduction in overseas commitments, including but not limited to the military.

Of those, where do I depart from libertarian belief?

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #34 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:20 PM
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I've already addressed all of this nonsense with crystal clarity, but since you seem to have missed it, allow me to reiterate.

Obama is not a libertarian. I find it extremely peculiar that you think he is. OTOH, anyone who is opposed to global imperialism and the unprovoked invasion/occupation of hapless third world countries represents something closer to a libertarian ideal than those who do. That would include the likes of Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Al Gore, Ralph Nader, etc., etc.

Finally, you can try to divorce yourself from thousands of posts over a period of years, but you have consistently praised and/or failed to condemn Bush on every score at every opportunity. Please find a single post of yours condemning the Bush administration for opposing 10 of the 11 points you have used to define libertarianism. Just one post, anything -- condemning the outing of a CIA agent, suspending of habeas corpus, illegal wiretaps, erosion of liberties, raising taxes (yes, deficit spending is analogous to raising taxes), anything. I honestly can't recall a single instance.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #35 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
I've already addressed all of this nonsense with crystal clarity, but since you seem to have missed it, allow me to reiterate.

Obama is not a libertarian. I find it extremely peculiar that you think he is. OTOH, anyone who is opposed to global imperialism and the unprovoked invasion/occupation of hapless third world countries represents something closer to a libertarian ideal than those who do. That would include the likes of Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, Al Gore, Ralph Nader, etc., etc.

Finally, you can try to divorce yourself from thousands of posts over a period of years, but you have consistently praised and/or failed to condemn Bush on every score at every opportunity. Please find a single post of yours condemning the Bush administration for opposing 10 of the 11 points you have used to define libertarianism. Just one post, anything -- condemning the outing of a CIA agent, suspending of habeas corpus, illegal wiretaps, erosion of liberties, raising taxes (yes, deficit spending is analogous to raising taxes), anything. I honestly can't can't recall a single instance.
I think he is overlooking the weight you place on a candidate's position on the war in Iraq (ie - it is very nearly a go/no-go with you, as I recall). Were it not for that, Obama least resembles the rest of the libertarian positions, though the other two are not a close match either.

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post #36 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GermanStar View Post
I honestly can't can't recall a single instance.
For his part in the outing of a CIA agent, suspending of habeas corpus, illegal wiretaps, erosion of liberties, raising taxes (yes, deficit spending is analogous to raising taxes) or anything else, George Bush is a stinker.


I have a statement in a similar vein planned for the last 60 seconds of my life.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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post #37 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:44 PM
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I think he is overlooking the weight you place on a candidate's position on the war in Iraq (ie - it is very nearly a go/no-go with you, as I recall). Were it not for that, Obama least resembles the rest of the libertarian positions, though the other two are not a close match either.
Right on the money.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #38 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Digmenow View Post
For his part in the outing of a 1.CIA agent,
2.suspending of habeas corpus, 3.illegal wiretaps, 4.erosion of liberties,
5.raising taxes (yes, deficit spending is analogous to raising taxes) or anything else, George Bush is a stinker.


I have a statement in a similar vein planned for the last 60 seconds of my life.
I guess you like the odds of being right 1 of 5 times.
Number 3 seems to be the only one to hold water.
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post #39 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by drcharlesatlas View Post

What ever happened to Lyndon Larouche?
Shit! What ever happened to Pat Paulson?

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post #40 of 74 (permalink) Old 03-30-2008, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Multipurpose View Post
I guess you like the odds of being right 1 of 5 times.
Number 3 seems to be the only one to hold water.
It's not about being right. It's about a single instance.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

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