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post #11 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 07:34 AM
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C'mon Shane, it is a tastelessly ugly example of American consumerism. I mean the entire styling theme is based on faux everything. The car is dynamically a piece of shit, which you conceded, but from every other perspective except unabated nostalgia based on it having the appearance of being brand new, it is worthless. So its appeal is in the crowd who's most enjoyable moments in life happened in 1982. Not too many of them likely left these days. It will sell for shit. Jim
Jim, there's no reasoning with him, regarding the "taste" issue. He makes a buck peddling tacky stuff, and it apparently works out well for him. I look at cars from engineering and utilitarian perspectives, and can't possibly fathom why someone would warehouse some of those pointless examples of Merkin mediocrity, absurdity and excess. Different strokes for dreary folks
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post #12 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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C'mon Shane, it is a tastelessly ugly example of American consumerism. I mean the entire styling theme is based on faux everything. The car is dynamically a piece of shit, which you conceded, but from every other perspective except unabated nostalgia based on it having the appearance of being brand new, it is worthless. So its appeal is in the crowd who's most enjoyable moments in life happened in 1982. Not too many of them likely left these days. It will sell for shit. Jim
Not everyone sees cars as pure utility needless to say, nearly all classic cars are passion buys that have nothing to do with the qualites that make a good daily driver. Try seeing things from points of view other than your own Jim.
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post #13 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 09:24 AM
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Not everyone sees cars as pure utility needless to say, nearly all classic cars are passion buys that have nothing to do with the qualites that make a good daily driver. Try seeing things from points of view other than your own Jim.
Unfortunately Shane, I agree with Z on this one. A car is not quite the same thing as a painting or a piece of sculpture. Cars represent the culmination of cooperative efforts by a number of human skill sets. American cars deviated from the emphasis on engineering and craftsmanship that was their trademark, along with most other manufacturers around the world, in the early decades of automobile development.

The example you cite is one of mechanical mediocrity, with a body/frame designed primarily to be easily modified to add "styling" changes from model year to model year while retaining the originally mediocre mechanical equipment that then just drags the overall automobile down as it falls behind real engineering advancements made by the competition. In short, the emphasis of the design was to enable promoting the illusion of "newness" every model year by making a generally less than state of the art safe, bolt on body look slightly different. In this way the need to perform real engineering to support the introduction of a "new" model every year using the same basic frame on several brands, could be reduced to near zero.

So, it is not just how ugly the car is with all its fake wood, fake spoked wheels (from the factory), fake styling "Landau Roof with Opera Windows," all finished off with a "Continental Kit" that likely further compromises handling and safety in an accident that is objectionable. It is the state of American auto industry's priorities that is so objectionable. It is the desire to produce such junk that has opened the door for nearly anyone in the world to build cars and sell them in America, profitably, while our domestic automobile manufacturing companies are recording nothing but losses.

So, the car has a nostalgia based appeal. For those who want to recall the good old days without wondering how things turned to shit so fast. Jim
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post #14 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 09:30 AM
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post #15 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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American cars deviated from the emphasis on engineering and craftsmanship that was their trademark.

The example you cite is one of mechanical mediocrity, with a body/frame designed primarily to be easily modified to add "styling" changes from model year to model year while retaining the originally mediocre mechanical equipment that then just drags the overall automobile down as it falls behind real engineering advancements made by the competition. In short, the emphasis of the design was to enable promoting the illusion of "newness" every model year by making a generally less than state of the art safe, bolt on body look slightly different. In this way the need to perform real engineering to support the introduction of a "new" model every year using the same basic frame on several brands, could be reduced to near zero.

So, it is not just how ugly the car is with all its fake wood, fake spoked wheels (from the factory), fake styling "Landau Roof with Opera Windows," all finished off with a "Continental Kit" that likely further compromises handling and safety in an accident that is objectionable. It is the state of American auto industry's priorities that is so objectionable. It is the desire to produce such junk that has opened the door for nearly anyone in the world to build cars and sell them in America, profitably, while our domestic automobile manufacturing companies are recording nothing but losses.
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That is a broad generalization since we know all companies are built on profit. American cars are knwown more for bringing transportation to the masses rather than engineering and craftmanship.

The '79 to '85 Toronado was the same underneath as the Eldorado and Riviera. None of those cars changed body wise in that time period so where is the ease of body change? Only the drivetrains changed to meet mileage requirements. Those three cars sported four wheel independent suspension, four wheel disc brakes, and a variety of dampening options on those suspensions.

The stuff you deem as ugly others see as trim that costs a lot of money to produce and place on the car. You should be happy the Americans could indulge in luxury and passion instead of being relegated out of necessity to the dangerously small, plebian, hatchback transportation most of the world endured at the time. The good ol' days are now, make no mistake cars are better overall now than they have ever been. You are seeing things from a specific point of view while ridiculing other views you see as inferior instead of just different as they are. The Toro in question will not be driven, it will likely go in some collection of many other cars to be saved for posterity. There lies the ultimate irony, that this car does indeed last the longest because people felt passionate enough to save it. That trumps durability eveytime.

PS 307 Oldsmobile V8's have been known to go over 200k miles without issue.

Last edited by Shane; 03-27-2008 at 09:53 AM.
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post #16 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 10:01 AM
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post #17 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Shane View Post
That is a broad generalization since we know all companies are built on profit. American cars are knwown more for bringing transportation to the masses rather than engineering and craftmanship.

The '79 to '85 Toronado was the same underneath as the Eldorado and Riviera. None of those cars changed body wise in that time period so where is the ease of body change? Only the drivetrains changed to meet mileage requirements. Those three cars sported four wheel independent suspension, four wheel disc brakes, and a variety of dampening options on those suspensions.

The stuff you deem as ugly others see as trim that costs a lot of money to produce and place on the car. You should be happy the Americans could indulge in luxury and passion instead of being relegated out of necessity to the dangerously small, plebian, hatchback transportation most of the world endured at the time. The good ol' days are now, make no mistake cars are better overall now than they have ever been. You are seeing things from a specific point of view while ridiculing other views you see as inferior instead of just different as they are. The Toro in question will not be driven, it will likely go in some collection of many other cars to be saved for posterity. There lies the ultimate irony, that this car does indeed last the longest because people felt passionate enough to save it. That trumps durability eveytime.

PS 307 Oldsmobile V8's have been known to go over 200k miles without issue.
Shane, you make my point. Three "different" cars are made on the same platform. And, if you look at the details of the sheet metal on the front ends where even a non-believer like me can see the difference, there were regular changes from model year to model year made to what were essentially bolt on panels.

See, here is an eBay ad for a 1979 model, look at the front end:
eBay Motors: Oldsmobile : Toronado (item 110234933271 end time Mar-28-08 12:12:02 PDT)

here is a 1984 model:
eBay Motors: Oldsmobile : Toronado (item 140218550108 end time Mar-31-08 19:00:41 PDT)

And, for comparison, here is a 1984 Buick Riviera:
eBay Motors: Buick : Riviera (item 220215418432 end time Mar-28-08 12:44:46 PDT)

And a 1985 Eldorado:
eBay Motors: Cadillac : Eldorado (item 250228037387 end time Mar-27-08 20:14:55 PDT)

My point is the model year to model year and brand to brand or car name to car name differences are about the same. Where is the creativity and engineering? Hard to detect if you ask me. And if you don't think the focus on mass producing junk like this opened the door to third world countries bringing their initially poorer engineered and lower quality cars here for lower cost, which they then parlayed into an opportunity to bring us cars with better engineering and better craftsmanship, you just aren't being objective.

Americans can make world class products. But that is hard work. Seems it is easier to just imagine junk like this stuff has some redeeming qualities. To me it represents the loss of tens of thousands of jobs while it made a few executives rich.

So, besides thinking a car full of fake luxury and styling features is kind of, well, a car with features that are supposed to give the impression of something it is not, fake in other words, cars of the era represent the seeds of the downfall of the American auto industry. That is not an event that I look back on as a fun thing or development in our history that fills me with pride. I kind of look at those fake cars and wish they would quickly disappear, really.

But it is ok if you like them Shane. Your likes and dislikes don't always coincide with mine and that is really ok. I guess someone has to find those delusions of grandeur just what the doctor ordered. Jim
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post #18 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 01:41 PM
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post #19 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 02:07 PM
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Jim you just criticized just about every American car ever made with your logic. Thats fine, maybe you just dont like American cars. This Toronado is no Benz, we all realize that. However, despite the shabby build quality and cheap materials these old cars were indeed very reliable and very quiet/comfortable. They didn't handle well and were very slow, didn't have that German feel we all like but they were necessary vechicles in the automotive landscape and catered to a certain audience (albeit grayheads). To see such a well preserved model today, is a treat.

Shane, you weren't expecting a great response in here were you?. Regardless, its a cool car, go for it!
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post #20 of 42 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 02:55 PM
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Shane, do not listen to the naysayers. Buy the damn thing and tell the one track minded shit head to bite the banana. er... no don't tell him, he just might.
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