This says alot about character, is this the kind of Commander in Chief you want...... - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-26-2008, 11:05 PM
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Prove to us that Iraq had masterminded 911
I believe Iraq is just a battlefront in a much wider war and, when it's successfully concluded, will give pause to the antagonists that remain. Would you want any less? Surely, you don't wish for our defeat. Oops, may be bad assumption on my part.

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post #42 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-26-2008, 11:10 PM
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I hear and understand your moral outrage; it's unfortunate that it has such a grip on you. Many well-meaning folks, including you, hold that as your conclusion about recent events. On the other hand, my idea is that it is your premise or basis that you started with in the election of 2000 and you have never gotten over it. You have built upon your premise by twisting, spinning, distorting and exaggerating facts and events to support it. Had the Iraq war gone well from the start and been over by now, you folks would just find another area to bitch about. Bush was bad to steal the election, Bush does bad things, some things Bush did turned out bad, see how bad Bush really is after all.

There are many items I could challenge you on, but I'll start with this one. Give me a straight answer. Get the real facts out there without any spin. The common mantra is, "Bush lied, kids died." JimSmith, what exactly was the "lie", quote it and tell us where he was when he said it and when did he say it. This is an invitation to set the record straight. If the rest of you think you know, don't give it away. Jim can do it by himelf.
bottomline1, what exactly was the reason Bush authorized the US invasion of Iraq, as told to America in say, the 2003 State of the Union Address, and, how does that basis differ from the many reasons given by Bush since the yellowcake and WMD stories turned out to be fabricated? Also note I cite Bush's inability to control his staff in the paragraphs you quoted. There are many instances of Cheney and Rumsfeld lying. On camera, and often on Sunday mornings during the network interviews. It goes on even 5 plus years after the invasion. There are lessons to be learned there.

By the way when Bush lied, more than just kids died. Jim
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post #43 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-26-2008, 11:22 PM
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post #44 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-26-2008, 11:24 PM
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I believe Iraq is just a battlefront in a much wider war and, when it's successfully concluded, will give pause to the antagonists that remain. Would you want any less? Surely, you don't wish for our defeat. Oops, may be bad assumption on my part.
A very simplistic and useless argument.

It is clear your model of America's role in the world is one dominated by exercising force, a "might makes right" view. Unfortunately, the America you inherited that was so great and mighty didn't get that way following your philosophy, and if you bother to review history, all those past "might makes right" dynasties have, well, been overcome by people with typically no even chance of winning. We have entered a conflict that was none of our business in Iraq. Until you get your head around that, and the fact that it was morally and ethically and, from a world view for America in the next century, strategery-wise, wrong you won't understand that more force won't make the situation better.

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post #45 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 06:39 AM
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when we hear about Iraq first thing in that comes in our mind war. Maybe its give a prof that Iraq would be the mastermind.
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post #46 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 06:54 AM
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when we hear about Iraq first thing in that comes in our mind war. Maybe its give a prof that Iraq would be the mastermind.
There is some solid logic. Like "Krystallnacht" and a few other classic Hitler tactics. Jim
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post #47 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 07:59 AM
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bottomline1, what exactly was the reason Bush authorized the US invasion of Iraq, as told to America in say, the 2003 State of the Union Address, and, how does that basis differ from the many reasons given by Bush since the yellowcake and WMD stories turned out to be fabricated? Also note I cite Bush's inability to control his staff in the paragraphs you quoted. There are many instances of Cheney and Rumsfeld lying. On camera, and often on Sunday mornings during the network interviews. It goes on even 5 plus years after the invasion. There are lessons to be learned there.

By the way when Bush lied, more than just kids died. Jim
Evasive, JimSmith. You answered my question with a question. You need to provide information on what was Bush's lie. Get with it. Be responsible for your claim. You can do better.

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post #48 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 08:25 AM
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Evasive, JimSmith. You answered my question with a question. You need to provide information on what was Bush's lie. Get with it. Be responsible for your claim. You can do better.
So can you. Lift your head up and look around. Use the scientific method for assessing your beliefs. Gather information. Look for patterns. Hypothesize relationships. Test hypotheses. Get with it.

You presumably heard the same stuff unless you are one of the ones who doesn't actually listen to speeches and addresses by the administration that affect the lives of our citizens and those of people around the world. Just listen to the 2003 State of the Union Address by Bush. Don't assume, but prove to yourself he didn't lie. Listen to Cheney's talks, or Rumsfeld's, with the news media. Again, prove to yourself they didn't lie.

It is you who have the doubts and it is therefore either something you are willing and able to investigate, or not. Seems, since you are demanding I do this for you, you are not. That is your shortcoming, and has no bearing on whether or not we have been lied to by the present administration for the last 6 plus years. Peel the onion back a bit and find out what is inside this never ending disaster we are mired in now. Jim
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post #49 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 12:59 PM
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So can you. Lift your head up and look around. Use the scientific method for assessing your beliefs. Gather information. Look for patterns. Hypothesize relationships. Test hypotheses. Get with it.

You presumably heard the same stuff unless you are one of the ones who doesn't actually listen to speeches and addresses by the administration that affect the lives of our citizens and those of people around the world. Just listen to the 2003 State of the Union Address by Bush. Don't assume, but prove to yourself he didn't lie. Listen to Cheney's talks, or Rumsfeld's, with the news media. Again, prove to yourself they didn't lie.

It is you who have the doubts and it is therefore either something you are willing and able to investigate, or not. Seems, since you are demanding I do this for you, you are not. That is your shortcoming, and has no bearing on whether or not we have been lied to by the present administration for the last 6 plus years. Peel the onion back a bit and find out what is inside this never ending disaster we are mired in now. Jim
I'm afraid our dialogue must be near ending for this thread. You're asking me to do something I can't do--listen to the State of the Union WITH YOUR EARS. I heard that speech when it was delivered and I heard no lies, but that is using my ears. But you are asserting that there was a lie, yet unwilling to state what it was. You continue to paint the whole administration with a very broad brush without any data forthcoming. Methinks you are not ready for a rational analysis of your lying assertion. State the lie and we'll discuss it; 7 years of basing your emotions on it won't be lost.

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post #50 of 53 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 01:11 PM
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I believe Iraq is just a battlefront in a much wider war and, when it's successfully concluded, will give pause to the antagonists that remain. Would you want any less? Surely, you don't wish for our defeat. Oops, may be bad assumption on my part.
First, why did WE, the US define IRAQ as a battlefront for the "much wider war"? It was not a major player in international terror at the time of our invasion. It was not our decision to make.

Second, define "successfully concluded". We have already had Mission Accomplished which was a fallacy and then years more of police action which were not war but not peace and then we had the Surge which was the troop strengths the Boots on the Ground Generals requested Day1 - yet we still have attacks on the GREEN ZONE, the most well protected piece of Real Estate on the Planet, again today.

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