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post #41 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:05 PM
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Yeah I'm sure of it we all drink a beer here.... anybody that comes to my house has a beer (except me I prefer wine)..... I mean come on..... lets face it... this is the real world after a hard day of cramming on the books and working the PTJ or like me I'm full time.

We sit in the back yard and talk... about well you name it... whats the current thing? (and btw no where does it say in the bible or....now I could be wrong... Koraan that it is wrong or bad to have a glass of wine or beer there is a comment about over-indulgent however I have not seen one that says "you shall NOT have a beer" or glass of wine as a mather of fact that dude jesus use to drink wine and he made some!..........
Nope, it's strictly forbidden in Islam
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post #42 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
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MBLR,

Are your friends Indians too or maybe Pakistanis? It could be the reason they argue with your hindu friend. Usually people with a previous history of conflict would act zealously. Or it could be that they'd like him to convert (and not you?) but they went wrong about it. Prophet Muhammed used peace treaties with his enemies so he can pass the message of God to people. You can't easily put a person to a session of reasoning and logic when you've just killed his friend or injured his brother or insulted him, right?
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post #43 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:11 PM
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I don't know enough about other religions, so I'll base my arguement about Islam. We have the kind of information we call "gheibiyaat" which are things we've never grasped with our senses but God told us about. Like the existence of God, angels, jinn, etc. These are things we've never seen and would've never known about had God no told us about them. These are some answers to questions that spending decades in a lab will never provide an answer for.

In Isalm, we have guidelines in Quran and Prophet Muhammed's, peace be upon him, sunna from which we derive judgemnet on things that arise from the progression of science and civilisation. Isalm encourages man to think and reason within these guidelines. The Holy book becomes a guide not a restraint.

Experimenting with genes is science not playing God. Of course science should have ethics the source of which is Quran, not somebody's interests. People play God when they give themselves the right (which they don't have) to make laws above the laws that God put for them or when they change the script of a holy book by adding, deleting and altering things or by misinterpretation.

Mother ship?


PS No drugs in Islam, no alcohol, no narcotics of any sort. God gave us brains to use and a body not to destroy. In Quran, Khamr=alcoholic drinks are forbidden and Prophet Muhammed, peace be upon him, said all things that intoxicate are haram. That's one guideline within which Muslim scholars derived the hukm=judgement that opium, for example, is haram.

Am I right when I got the feeling that you don't believe in the existence of God altogether?
It's hard for me to accept the concept of a God that must insist that we take "gheibiyaat" as a given. That's like a slick salesman telling me not to worry about why a product is priced so low and all I have to do to get is pay then wait for him to ship me the goods.
"gheibiyaat" in essence is for the ghebi

Maybe you think it's haram that a human being should challenge the existence of God but remember that even your religion's first words were Ikraa, ikraa bisme Rabika althy khalak...That is surely inspiring in terms of reading to understand who we are, what we are and how we came to be. As matter of fact the next sentence was about just that: Khalaka al insan min alak. That leads to a lot of interpretation so as you see Talhoub, there are parts that I think are fantastic about your religion but the "gheibiyaat" that does not jive with me.
This is important since you brought up the point of completeness as the test for one's choice of religion but Talhoube EVERY religion has such contradictions. The one I just pointed to is a great example of Ilm versus Jahl. How can a religion advocate and push both?
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post #44 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
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Nope, it's strictly forbidden in Islam
That's right. In Islam it forbidden, not a sip.
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post #45 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:30 PM
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MBLR,

Are your friends Indians too or maybe Pakistanis? It could be the reason they argue with your hindu friend. Usually people with a previous history of conflict would act zealously. Or it could be that they'd like him to convert (and not you?) but they went wrong about it. Prophet Muhammed used peace treaties with his enemies so he can pass the message of God to people. You can't easily put a person to a session of reasoning and logic when you've just killed his friend or injured his brother or insulted him, right?
Oh no! one is from Africa (he is the very strictest one and also my favorite one. oh shoot don't tell anyone that!) he was a wandering orpan before he came to the US of A ..the other two are brothers from المملكة العربية السعودية‎ or Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Everybody here has or that comes to my little dumpy place understand one thing........ That they are friends reguardless of the background... Except me heh! I'm a Mutt so hah hah! I can get away with most anything!
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post #46 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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drewprof,

gheibiyaat for the ghebi? Not really. Trying to prove the unseen/insensible is a waste of time and that's a form of ghabaa too.

If the salesman in your example didn't give me guarantees or strong indications that he's telling the truth, I won't trust him. But God did give us many indications in the Quran. Quran is a miracle of many natures. It stunned eloquent Arabs 1400 years ago into believing or at least thinking and reasoning. It came as a distinct literary style they never heard before. It told stories of past peoples, believers and disbelievers, that Arabs in the desert never heard of before. It opened the eyes of oppressed people that they're no less than their oppressors and that they should have their full rights as human beings. It transformed fighting tribes into leaders of a very humane civilisation. Later, when people no longer valued the eloquence of the Quran and human rights were a big, established issue all over the world and the industrial revolution transformed our lives by leaps at a time and people became more impressed by science, we started to understand some remarkable scientific information that were absolutely impossible to know a couple decades ago, let alone 14 centuries ago by an illeterate man in Arabia. The alak bit you mentioned is one of them. It's just amazing. I think we should accept gheibiyaat as good pieces of information and utilise them to understand more. If we don't, we'll waste more time and would most likely not reach an answer. Just like a student in a math/physics exam. If you want to write down a good answer, use all the information in the question. They're there to make your job easier. If you ignore them, ...

Read in the name of your God who created man from alak..This is my rough translation of the meaning. Why don't we just do that? Once or twice for a change.

Please check out this page and ask yourself could Muhammed make this up 1440 years ago?

A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam, Muslims, and the Quran

Thank you for your time
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post #47 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
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المملكة العربية السعودية‎ ? I'm impressed. You guys are gonna give me the impression that Arabic has become popular in the US.


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Everybody here has or that comes to my little dumpy place understand one thing........ That they are friends reguardless of the background... Except me heh! I'm a Mutt so hah hah! I can get away with most anything!

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post #48 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 08:36 PM
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Shoot I'm am the only one here that only speaks one lang... Phuc Nong is Cambodian and she has OMG 5 different langs that she can speak and understand as well WRITE! and that blows me away she is by the way a Budist and is perhaps the most at peace than anyone elses...
I hope she stops by tomorrow!

And now we really have a Debate that I am going to start you say that any drinking is forbid by muslims so I am going to bring this one up! and btw No one smoke any of that wacky tobacky stuff here thought Markham likes a cig and so does Ludimya (she the cute Russian I like) and never get anywhere with.
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post #49 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-21-2008, 08:45 PM
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Tahloube seems to demonstrate the lamentable trait of those who are so deeply immersed in their cult that any thoughts or questions which run counter to the religion receive tidy, pre-packaged answers - totally without regard of the hypocrisy or contradiction resulting from those answers.

Mohammed told you not to drink, not God. Mohammed was a man, and a flawed one by every account. Follow him and his instructions to the letter if you want (you'll observe that he seldom did). Just don't confuse the act of obeying the bizarre whims of a perverted child molesting sociopath with having faith in "the one true God". God doesn't need Mohammed, or Jesus, or you or me, in order for people to believe in and relate to Him.

By the way, what happens if you mention Mohammed and you don't say "peace be upon him"? Will I soon be struck down or something? Because you and others do that a lot, almost subconsciously...I find it a rather disturbing display of brainwashing.
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post #50 of 92 (permalink) Old 03-22-2008, 04:03 AM Thread Starter
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Tahloube seems to demonstrate the lamentable trait of those who are so deeply immersed in their cult that any thoughts or questions which run counter to the religion receive tidy, pre-packaged answers - totally without regard of the hypocrisy or contradiction resulting from those answers.
I am deeply immersed in Islam. And maybe that's why you find it hard to relate to me.. because you feel I believe in something that you don't believe in at all. I'm sorry but I can't notice any hypocricy or contradiction resulting from those answers. I didn't say I was abducted by a UFO for years and was brought back home the next day or something. I just read something and found it flawless to my humble ability of reasoning.

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Mohammed told you not to drink, not God
Here's an example.. I do believe God told us not to drink as clearly mentioned in Quran. You think Muhammed made it up because you don't believe in his message nor in Quran as the word of God and you think he made the whole thing of Islam up.

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Mohammed was a man,..
Of course he was. That makes it easier for me to follow his daily practice of Islam. The bit about him being flawled in every account is where I disagree. Have you read seera=Muhammed's life? How can you make such a general, negative statement about him?

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God doesn't need Mohammed, or Jesus, or you or me, in order for people to believe in and relate to Him.
Of course God doesn't need them. We need them. We need them to guide us and show us that a mere human like Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, etc can live by the laws God put for man and be at peace with themselves and others and lay foundation to a civilised human life that is just and good for everybody (this is the broad meaning of worship in Islam). They're ( just like us) no angels, no gods, no anything special but the best men in their respective times to convey the message of God to man and bear the consequences of the change they're about to bring. Leaders of a long-established society with its many flaws will resist the new message and the change it will bring. That's why God chose the best, most credible, most tusted, patient and willing-to-sacrifice men to be messengers. This is Islam's idea of prophets/messengers.


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By the way, what happens if you mention Mohammed and you don't say "peace be upon him"? Will I soon be struck down or something?
No. I love Muhammed and all messengers/prophets of God that every time they're mentioned, I say "Salla Allah-u aleihi wa sallam". It's a little prayer Muhammed taught us and to which we're rewarded the same (only 10 fold) by God. If you don't say it, nothing happens. If you do it often, it becomes natural.

My brother in humanity, I feel you believe in God. Maybe you don't like the forms of existing religions (or your idea of them). Many feel the same and I can understand why; a lot of wrong is being committed in the name of religion. But bear with me please. Think of religion as a car. Don't judge a particular brand by its drivers. Go to a dealership and test-drive one by yourself. Don't ask another brand's dealer, most likely he won't help simply because he doesn't know and he wants to sell his own brand. You can read the Quraan, hadith=Muhammed's sayings, seera (from a credible Muslim source) and find for yourself. Maybe you'll like it, maybe not. But you'll know for sure what Islam is.
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