Do fascists go to live here when they retire? - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 10:48 AM
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The people writing for or against religious fascism divided into, broadly, two groups: 1) well educated theology students who make it clear that they do not defend theism (or, in at least some cases, believe in God), and 2), a group of assorted barely-literate cranks who everyone, including the people in 1), secretly laughs at. But if most religious believers were presented with the writing of those in group 1), I would guess that they’d find them incomprehensible, irrelevant, or heretical and full of to many fuck words. This is not to say that academic writing is any less valuable because people with average education or typical beliefs can’t understand it. But from a public policy point of view, who cares? The question is how we should act in relation to religious believers in the mass, not whether a God really exists or not.
Irritated theologians will protest that we don’t take the book of Genesis literally any more. But that is my point! You pick and choose which bits of scripture to believe, which bits to write off as allegories”. Muslims and Christians have traditionally been fundamentalists, but that as the plausibility of fundamentalist readings of the text has been eroded by the march of reason for the Christian but not the muslim, “irritated Christian theologians” protest that you no longer take biblical texts literally. Patristic and medieval theology worked with a rich, at times almost uncontrollable diversity of “senses of scripture”. Passages of Scripture gave up their sense only by being read in many different ways. Fundamentalism – in the sense of the privileging of the meaning which a passage, taken out of any context, appears a priori, on the surface, to possess – is, as the Old Testament scholar James Barr demonstrated over thirty years ago, a by-product of modern rationalism: of the privileging of timeless and direct description, of mathematics over metaphor, prose over poetry.
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post #62 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
You don't get the point. Because Hitler was an EXTREME Fascist does not mean that I was comparing the current Administration to Hitler, just Fascism. You tried to move the point, sorry that doesn't work.
It is you who's trying to move the point. You say you didn't compare what you call Bush's brand of fascism to Hitler. Let me jog your memory with your quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Did you even READ what that definition that you posted said. You could have put Republican or NeoCon in the place of Fascism and in more cases than not it would be a perfect fit.

Rightwing -check
Authoritarian -check
racism - check
intolerant - check [gays, immigration, "science", world view]
xenophobia - check [immigration, Muslims]
jingoism [chauvinistic patriotism] - check
anti-Semitism - semi-check [can't decide if Jews are worse that Muslims]

Now if you want to talk about the Republicans prior to Nixon/Ford, that is a different story but with the death of Buckley, they are gone forever, replaced by, well...
Sounds like a Hitler comparison, to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
Racism is not just black and white. It is also what we see against Muslims being preached on Talk Radio and generalized in speeches and as we bomb one Arab country while looking for OBL in another one.
Please tell who the 'talk radio hate mongers' are. Would you be talking about Rush Limbaugh? He's a lot of things but he's no racist. Don't even start with his parody of Barack the Magic Negro, a reference to an LA times article that called Barack Obama that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
As for intolerance of immigrants, I have seen and heard so many posts and comments about "send them all back, let the legals get back in" or "THEY" are spending our tax dollars". Never mind that many of the families have been here longer than we have been alive.
What is it about the word 'illegal' in front of immigrant that you don't understand. If they're illegal, they SHOULD be sent back! How long do you think you'd last in any other country without the proper paperwork to stay there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear
As for what is wrong with expecting marriage to be 1 man, 1 woman ["because that is how it has been since the beginning"], Sorry, but you are confusing LEGAL contracts [marriage] and religious ceremonies. In the beginning [If we use the Biblical logic] there was NO marriage as there was no County Court Clerk in which to register the ceremony, Cain and Able either had sex with their mom or sisters [if they existed] to procreate the next generation so I am not so sure that your "because that is how it has been since the beginning" logic works really really well. It is the legal contract that is at issue, not the religious issue, if folks want to have a religious service also, there are plenty of ministers that will provide weddings for gays [I was at a service just last year].
Why do you wish to redefine marriage? Not confident enough that a 'civil union' between two gays is enough? How would bigamy laws apply in a gay union? You make an assumption that Cain and Abel had sex with their mother or sisters, but you seem to lack knowledge of the bible. When Cain was 'cast out' for killing his brother, he went to the land of Nod and took a wife. Where did those 'wives' come from?? (But that's a whole new discussion).

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Originally Posted by mcbear
I didn't even go into the illegal wiretap and Gitmo [abuse of the Constitution] issues and a few other things as I figured they were so obvious to the fascist argument.
And why not? You think that prisoners caught in battle deserve the same protection under our constitution as residents of this country? Oops, I'm sorry! We've had that discussion before and you do think the COTUS applies to foreigners taken prisoner in battle. But you seem to miss the point entirely about people who were not born under our law, never resided under our law, never submitted to any of our laws but, when it's 'convenient' for them, all of a sudden the COTUS should apply.

Perhaps you missed the points I also made about concentration camps and nut case left wing liberal preachers who think the 'white man's government' orchestrated 9/11, made crack cocaine to distribute to blacks, built more prisons just so they could imprison more blacks, etc. No one need look any further than your own Democratic party if they want to see racism in play.

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post #63 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:32 PM
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Yet, you seem unable to provide one. Hey, don't blame me because you looked up the wrong word (hint: unprecedented starts with a U), and a dictionary definition has already been provided. You out, bro.
Did you not attend elementary school in an English-speaking country?

What does the prefix "un-" mean in Phoenixian?

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #64 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
It is you who's trying to move the point. You say you didn't compare what you call Bush's brand of fascism to Hitler. Let me jog your memory with your quote:

Sounds like a Hitler comparison, to me.
I would answer ALL the quotes but let's just make this very simple. Fascism does NOT EQUAL Hitler therefore a comparison of BUSH to Fascism is NOT a comparison of Bush to Hitler. Does that simple logic elude you completely? To further simplify, at no point did I mention Hitler, the Nazi Party, Germany nor did the Definition that YOU provided. HITLER came only from your point.

So I reiterate, YOU are trying to move the point. Try again.

And no, I was not talking about the LA Times article. I was speaking of racism against, as I pointed out Arabs, Muslims, and Mexicans.

As for 'civil unions', as long as gay couples have the exact legal rights as heterosexual couples as a result of their "civil ceremony", in all 50 states, I am happy. That is all that anyone asks. The religious service and traditions are irrelevant.

As for Gitmo, if all the folks there were "caught in battle" then they deserve Geneva Convention rights. If they were not "caught in battle" they deserve either our Constitutional rights or be let go to the country where they were caught.

As for racism in the Democratic Party, yep there are those also. Note that they get their ass kicked when they open their mouths, by the Democrats.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #65 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
It is you who's trying to move the point. You say you didn't compare what you call Bush's brand of fascism to Hitler. Let me jog your memory with your quote:
You might see the issue more clearly if you try to view fascism as a legitimate political philosophy, rather than equate it with some rather extreme historical examples that only you have invoked. We can all assess the merits (or lack thereof) of socialism without conjuring an image of Karl Marx, can't we?

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post #66 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Did you not attend elementary school in an English-speaking country?

What does the prefix "un-" mean in Phoenixian?

B
Does you dictionary have a "U" section? Assuming it does, give it a shot.

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post #67 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 02:23 PM
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But Merkins don't have the dictatorial leader.
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post #68 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I would answer ALL the quotes but let's just make this very simple. Fascism does NOT EQUAL Hitler therefore a comparison of BUSH to Fascism is NOT a comparison of Bush to Hitler. Does that simple logic elude you completely? To further simplify, at no point did I mention Hitler, the Nazi Party, Germany nor did the Definition that YOU provided. HITLER came only from your point.

So I reiterate, YOU are trying to move the point. Try again.

And no, I was not talking about the LA Times article. I was speaking of racism against, as I pointed out Arabs, Muslims, and Mexicans.

As for 'civil unions', as long as gay couples have the exact legal rights as heterosexual couples as a result of their "civil ceremony", in all 50 states, I am happy. That is all that anyone asks. The religious service and traditions are irrelevant.

As for Gitmo, if all the folks there were "caught in battle" then they deserve Geneva Convention rights. If they were not "caught in battle" they deserve either our Constitutional rights or be let go to the country where they were caught.

As for racism in the Democratic Party, yep there are those also. Note that they get their ass kicked when they open their mouths, by the Democrats.
The point:
You called Bush and his administration 'fascist'. They are NOT. They may have some characteristics of fascism, just as your liberal party has characteristics of communism, but neither can be called either without the deciding factors that you so willingly paint out with your wide brush.

Second, you point out 'racism' against Muslims, Arabs and Mexicans. What gives? You still don't seem to understand it's not 'Mexicans' conservatives have a problem with, it's ILLEGAL Mexicans. It's not Arabs or Muslims conservatives have a problem with, it's the Arabs and Muslims who want to kill us. Do I need to bold and italicize 'ILLEGAL' so you will understand what the real problem is? You'd be content to open our borders and let just anybody in, without reasonable security means necessary to weed out the bad element. This is why it's important to enforce immigration laws and secure our borders. It's called National Security, my friend. Is that a concept that is alien to you? Are you so afraid of the 'racist' tag, that you'll go out of your way to allow illegals to cross over, suck our free medical care and other giveaway programs dry and then stick the working tax payer with the tab? You, of all people who claims to be a fiscal conservative, should understand that illegal immigration is slowly strangling our resources and it needs to stop. That isn't racism! That's good common sense!

Here's a really balanced article you need to read, if you're going to continue your 'fascist'/'racist tirade:
USATODAY.com - Bush is opening doors with a diverse Cabinet

And final point: There is not one prisoner in Gitmo that has the right to access the freedoms outlined in OUR COTUS. It's not the constitution of the world!

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post #69 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 04:24 PM
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If the Republicans are fascists, then the Democrats are fascists too.

The system, not the leader, is the fascism.

The state, not the citizen, is the served.

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
-a Richard Burton
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post #70 of 105 (permalink) Old 03-17-2008, 04:25 PM
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Vonvolly and the so called "prof", please learn how to post like
our own master bear below.
There is a elongated key called "return" about where your
pinky is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbear View Post
I would answer ALL the quotes but let's just make this very simple. Fascism does NOT EQUAL Hitler therefore a comparison of BUSH to Fascism is NOT a comparison of Bush to Hitler. Does that simple logic elude you completely? To further simplify, at no point did I mention Hitler, the Nazi Party, Germany nor did the Definition that YOU provided. HITLER came only from your point.

So I reiterate, YOU are trying to move the point. Try again.

And no, I was not talking about the LA Times article. I was speaking of racism against, as I pointed out Arabs, Muslims, and Mexicans.

As for 'civil unions', as long as gay couples have the exact legal rights as heterosexual couples as a result of their "civil ceremony", in all 50 states, I am happy. That is all that anyone asks. The religious service and traditions are irrelevant.

As for Gitmo, if all the folks there were "caught in battle" then they deserve Geneva Convention rights. If they were not "caught in battle" they deserve either our Constitutional rights or be let go to the country where they were caught.

As for racism in the Democratic Party, yep there are those also. Note that they get their ass kicked when they open their mouths, by the Democrats.
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