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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Here, let's make this simple for you. Pick one from the list below.

Therapists, Psychologists, Counseling in Lawrence, Kansas - KS
I am one of them!

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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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For a graduate of such higher learning (or was that leaning), you sure say that alot..............
...because you are obviously of the lower learning kookbergers...

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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 08:35 PM
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I am one of them!

Jay, sorry but you are not one, what you have experienced is after the patient has a large number of psychoanalytical sessions then the patient assumes the identity of the psychoanalyst. Please go back on your meds and face reality.............
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 08:46 PM
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You are so eager to argue with me, you make my point. The regulatory process you describe above only covers the integrity of one side of the loan transaction--the underwriting. The purpose being to prove that the loan was granted with terms and conditions that comply with Federal law regarding civil rights, redlining, ratios, etc. These folks are not interested in whether the loan was in the best interest of the borrower, which involves an entirely different set of standards.

Part of your problem here is that you've ignored the change-over to mostly conventional loans in recent times. They are not FHA and VA insured and therefore receive much less scrutiny. And the conventional loans are the ones mostly involved in the sub-prime issue.

I completely agree with lenders denying loans for non-qualifying borrowers; that was my point and I think it's yours, too. When the lender says, "At your age (or health, or multiple marriages, or too many college-age children) a new loan wouldn't be your best decision" , I object to them stepping over the line. The lender's concern should be only, 1) is the collateral solid, and 2) can the payments be made. That's it. No social work interviews necessary on the loan application.

Using the mining analogy is a weak side-trip and just grinds your liberal ax about government regulation.
I think you misinterpreted my original quote "the lack of fiduciary responsibility of the banking industry to keep folks from over-leveraging their assets". That was NOT intended to suggest that it is the banks responsibility to protect the borrower other than to maintain the integrity of the loan. Part of that is insuring that that borrower does not over-borrow on their property or over-extend their payback potential.

As for the mining reference. It might sound weak if you have not had friends die in mines due to unsafe conditions that could have been found by keeping Mining Regulators on the job instead of letting the industry "police itself".

Maybe the airline industry should be allowed to self regulate itself also. They do such a good job of keeping luggage attached to the passenger and flights on time. Do you fly much? Ready to assume that risk of self regulation? What about your food supply. Or water? Or bridges? Or elevators? Or building codes?

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 09:13 PM
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Part of your problem here is that you've ignored the change-over to mostly conventional loans in recent times. They are not FHA and VA insured and therefore receive much less scrutiny. And the conventional loans are the ones mostly involved in the sub-prime issue.
You might want to check with a banker. Apparently nearly EVERY conventional loan is backed by FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or one of the other Government backed underwriters. That is why FHA, the FMs and other Government underwriters are losing their AAA ratings for the first time EVER.

While FHA and VA "only" carry about 7.5Million mortgages on the books Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and others now guarantee the mass of Conventional/ARM/Jumbo/AltA and SubPrime loans.

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 09:20 PM Thread Starter
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You might want to check with a banker. Apparently nearly EVERY conventional loan is backed by FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or one of the other Government backed underwriters. That is why FHA, the FMs and other Government underwriters are losing their AAA ratings for the first time EVER.

While FHA and VA "only" carry about 7.5Million mortgages on the books Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and others now guarantee the mass of Conventional/ARM/Jumbo/AltA and SubPrime loans.
Exactly when did the FHA, Freddie and Fanny lose their AAA rating?

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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 09:25 PM
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They do that all the time... So do stock brokers. There are all manner of requirements to invest in many types of investments. I just made a fairly substantial investment in a new type of fund w/ Morgan Stanley for one of my Roth IRAs. It is called the Absolute Return Fund run by the Alternative Investment Partners. ( Morgan Stanley Investment Management Launches the Alternative Investment Partners Absolute Return Fund STS ; Absolute Return Fund STS Demonstrates Further Enhancement of Alternative Investment Offerings | Business Wire | Find Articles at BNET.com )They presented me w/ a book of warnings, qualifications and other conditions that I had to read and agree to before I could invest. They seemed to be trying to scare the hell out of me.
And that IS how is is suppose to be done.

Imagine the surprise of investigators to learn that hundreds of loans in the Cleveland and Detroit areas were given to people who either had 1) no job, 2) were in their 80s and their fixed income did not touch the payments on their shiny new mortgages or 3) there was no house at the address for the mortgage.

Saturday afternoon I got an email with a pdf of my loan closing papers for tomorrow. It is 97 pages long. I have already found four errors in it, from being charged twice for the same service to the same document interlaced twice in the package. It is kluggy as Hell, and I read and construct contracts on a regular basis.

I can't imagine what someone who doesn't have the skills to understand contracts does. Especially since the bank's mortgage broker was very off the cuff with his "there is no need to have a Real Estate Attorney present, With all the regulations we have to deal with, we couldn't do anything if we wanted to". He got fired Friday.

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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 09:39 PM
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I think you misinterpreted my original quote "the lack of fiduciary responsibility of the banking industry to keep folks from over-leveraging their assets". That was NOT intended to suggest that it is the banks responsibility to protect the borrower other than to maintain the integrity of the loan. Part of that is insuring that that borrower does not over-borrow on their property or over-extend their payback potential.

As for the mining reference. It might sound weak if you have not had friends die in mines due to unsafe conditions that could have been found by keeping Mining Regulators on the job instead of letting the industry "police itself".

Maybe the airline industry should be allowed to self regulate itself also. They do such a good job of keeping luggage attached to the passenger and flights on time. Do you fly much? Ready to assume that risk of self regulation? What about your food supply. Or water? Or bridges? Or elevators? Or building codes?
No, McBare, I didn't misinterpret your assertion. I disagreed with it. The banking industry only has a fiduciary duty to its investors and not to the borrowers. The operative word is "fiduciary" which has strict legal meanings that you want to stretch to the degree that the poor guy making the loan has to be responsible for somethings he has no control over or any tools to evaluate. This is where nanny government gets its start--just a degree at a time until the whole lobster is cooked, or the goose, in my view. By your preference, you're changing "caveat emptor" to "caveat vendor" and simply piling on the victim culture already too well developed.

If you want to change the topic to regulation, and you strongly believe that conservatives want to eat bad food, drink putrid water, cross collapsing bridges, ride falling elevators or live in dangerous shacks, start another thread with those assertions and we'll take you on.

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 10:19 PM
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Exactly when did the FHA, Freddie and Fanny lose their AAA rating?
Not sure, was reading 2007 Q3 Fanny Mae quarterly report and they noted that Moody's had moved them to Aaa.

EDIT

Here is the report. Table 19 on page 46 has the various ratings for the S&P, Moody's and Fitch AAA/Aaa/AAA

http://www.fanniemae.com/ir/pdf/earn...007/q32007.pdf

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Last edited by mcbear; 03-09-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-09-2008, 10:23 PM
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You might want to check with a banker. Apparently nearly EVERY conventional loan is backed by FHA, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or one of the other Government backed underwriters. That is why FHA, the FMs and other Government underwriters are losing their AAA ratings for the first time EVER.

While FHA and VA "only" carry about 7.5Million mortgages on the books Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and others now guarantee the mass of Conventional/ARM/Jumbo/AltA and SubPrime loans.
In the interest of your education, you have muddied the waters with your imprecise use of the phrases "backed by" and "guaranteed."

The loans approved through FHA and VA are insured against loss by those government agencies because of the higher purpose of making loans (therefore homeownership) available to those unable to come up with 20% down payment. That allows the borrower in most cases to make as little as 3% down payment. The loans are still originated by common lenders, but the underwriting criteria are particular to FHA or VA.

Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae exist to create a secondary market for such loans. Once the lender makes the loan, underwritten to Fred or Mae's guidelines, they will fund the loan in the market and send the money back to the lender so he can make a new loan. They make their money on the mark-up from the bonds they sell. Freddie Mac works primarily with conventional loans, Fannie works with both gov't insured loans and conventional.

Conventional loans are insured by private mortgage insurors, they are not "guaranteed" by the government; by definition they are conventional and require a 20% down payment. I believe that part of the subprime problem is that many borrowers have gotten around the 20% problem (better described as equity) by taking on a second mortgage for that amount. Those 2nds have a much higher rate and often a balloon payment ,a formula for short term disaster.

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