USA Today: Bashing NAFTA misses real reason for factory job losses - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 12:05 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
Jayhawk's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2005
Vehicle: S500/W220/2000
Location: Lawrence, KS (USA)
Posts: 21,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmitch View Post
Jay, you seem to miss my point, entirely.
You don't seem to understand that when NAFTA was passed, it was said these jobs would be replaced in 5 years. It didn't happen, Jay. It has been 14 years and our industrial park is still full of empty buildings. You quote these numbers and shit, while I respect what you're saying, you need to understand that numbers aren't everything. People lost their homes and cars over this flawed piece of shit. They drained their retirement accounts at 30% penalties and interest while they 'retrained' for a job that never came. Most had to hit the McDonalds and Wendys jobs, most of which was favored to high schoolers, to at least put food on their tables, displacing entry level jobs that recent graduates and college kids would have had. How do I know this? I lived in the middle of it. It's easy for you to say what you're saying because you didn't experience it. When you lose your job at 50, 55 or even 60, you can't wait 14 years to get back your previous level of salary. By then you're retired, broke and working 3 part time jobs just to have enough gas to see your grand kids. Who is going to put a price on the DAMAGE NAFTA has done? You are missing this point, BIG TIME! You have to put the losses against the gains. If you do that, you would see a hell of a lot less rosier picture. It's immoral to f^ck with people's lives like this in the 'hopes' that in 5 years, everything will be okay. It wasn't okay in 5 years, Jay! It has took nearly 15 years to just break even replace these jobs just in our area. Not worth the damage it caused, in my book.

Now for your figures:
• 27.5 million new jobs. -Give me a break. The population has increased in legal citizens by 14 million in this same period. That's not counting the illegals, which it is estimated, has taken over 20 million+ jobs. When you factor in the 20 million new illegal workers on top of the population growth of 14 million, it doesn't sit well when you say 27.5 million new jobs. Hey Jay, we have over 35 million new able bodied workers who are consumers that need jobs putting 27.5 million against that still leaves a deficit of 7.5 million jobs. So, NAFTA didn't do shit in that department.
• Average Hourly earnings up 62%- C'mawn. That's cost of living. Who are you fooling? If they had retained their jobs, they'd be making at least as much, if not more.
• Manufacturing production up 72%- which areas? Are we talking about cars, appliances, building materials or cabbage, tomatoes, onions and socks? It matters to know. It still doesn't offset the DAMAGE done to regain these jobs. It's like a balance sheet, you have to put the losses against the gross in order to determine the net gain (or loss).

Weigh the damage that NAFTA done to get us where you and NAFTA proponents say we are, it simply wasn't worth it.
I do understand what you are saying, and I fully understand that where one stands on NAFTA depends on where you sit. But overall I strongly believe that it is a good trade agreement and should not be dismissed or re-negotiated as the democraps seem determined to do.

Don't believe everything you think
Jayhawk is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 04:31 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlomon View Post
NAFTA isn't responsible for the death of manufacturing in North America. A far larger and more powerful trigger was China's inclusion in the WTA. Have a look at pretty much everthing you buy nowadays. It doesn't say "Made in Canada" or "Made in Mexico" on it. These jobs have been sent to places like China, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, the Philippines and Cambodia. I live in the industrial heartland of Canada, and I can tell you for a fact that we have not enjoyed an industrial renaissance thanks to NAFTA. We floated on a low-valued currency for all but the last two years since the agreement came into effect. Of course, now that resources are hot (again, thanks to China's voracious demand for anything that can be pulled out of the ground), our dollar is at par with yours, which has removed any former labour cost savings. When our plants close the jobs go to the same place that your jobs migrate to. All in the name of maximizing shareholder value.

Open it at your own risk. Believe me, there are people up here who would love to re-open the agreement and talk about things like the failed dispute resolution system. We'll also be pushing to remove things like fresh water from the list of designated commodities. Both Clinton and Obama have been pretty clear that they intend to use the lever of US economic purchasing power to force both Canada and Mexico to renegotiate terms more favourable to the US, and there seems to be traction for that in parts of the country. Canada will really only have one major economic stick to wield in a war like that, which is the fact that we are the single largest supplier of oil and natural gas to the US, and that supply does not require an expensive military committment to keep coming. The pressure to use energy as a weapon will be too overwhelming for any politician up here to ignore. Be prepared for your energy costs to skyrocket, and your involvement in the Middle East to increase as a result.

I'm not saying that's what I want to see happen. I'm saying that is what our response will be. If you want to protect manufacturing job losses in your country (much as I want to protect them in mine) then you should be lobbying your government to get protectionist with Chinese imports.
Exactly. And cmitch's textile manufacturers were the first one to go there. I like NAFTA, I hope it leads to the eventual unification of the continent. For every empty industrial park in his neighborhood we are building three in Houston.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 04:32 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
FeelTheLove's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 83 Astral Silver 280 SL
Location: Planet Houston
Posts: 28,829
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
I do understand what you are saying, and I fully understand that where one stands on NAFTA depends on where you sit. But overall I strongly believe that it is a good trade agreement and should not be dismissed or re-negotiated as the democraps seem determined to do.
Cut the crap Jayhawk, both parties are demogouging the issue.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
FeelTheLove is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
Jayhawk's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2005
Vehicle: S500/W220/2000
Location: Lawrence, KS (USA)
Posts: 21,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
Cut the crap Jayhawk, both parties are demagoguing the issue.
Please tell us how McCain is "demagoguing the issue..."

I don't like the guy, but I don't think he is "demagoguing" anything...

Don't believe everything you think
Jayhawk is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 04:48 PM
BenzWorld Elite
 
jlomon's Avatar
 
Date registered: Dec 2006
Vehicle: 2013 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI, 2011 Mazda 2, 2000 E320 4Matic Wagon (retired),1994 C280 (retired)
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 3,488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
Please tell us how McCain is "demagoguing the issue..."

I don't like the guy, but I don't think he is "demagoguing" anything...
I agree, although I think he's being a little melodramatic when he suggests that our military support in Afghanistan is somehow hinged to our membership in NAFTA. We're there because we're in NATO, not because we're in NAFTA. However, he hits the nail squarely on the head when he talks about the message being telegraphed to future US treaty partners. He understands that a country's word must be its bond, and that if the US gets a reputation as a treaty-breaker, then other countries will be reluctant to sign treaties in the future. I find it a little odd that the Dems have been talking for the past 5 years or so about how the Repos have damaged the US's reputation in the global community and how they have weakened many traditional alliances and partnerships. How would reopening or breaking away from NAFTA do anything different?
jlomon is offline  
post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 03-01-2008, 04:55 PM
DP
Moderator
 
DP's Avatar
 
Date registered: Aug 2002
Vehicle: 190E, 400E, SLK350
Location: Chesapeak Bay
Posts: 64,124
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 988 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
We don't need no stinkin Nafta, we can simply walk in on Canada when our currency reaches zero so we can even out the playing field.
DP is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    The real reason i kept my 190E ItsACrazyAsian W201 190-Class 0 12-04-2007 11:19 AM
    Ford: where big losses are the new job 1 Check Codes Off-Topic 0 01-25-2007 08:29 AM
    Real reason why Park distance control was deleted from '06 SLK in USA chiyosuke R171 SLK-Class 22 09-20-2005 05:59 AM
    ok, so now i have a real reason to do something to my G belosch G-Class 23 07-20-2004 12:27 PM
    Finally happened - involved in a bumper bashing at work today. Need advice! Daniel R170 SLK-Class 6 10-23-2002 07:12 AM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome