Obama victory will prolong US racial divide. - Page 2 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #11 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:12 PM
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Why can't we get a "moderate" someone who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal? Someone who does not want to completly fuck up our healthcare by involving the gov't anymore than they already are. Someone who does not want to spend every penny they can draw against the credit line. Someone who will not bow to RIAA, MPAA, etc.
First, our healthcare is already completely fucked if 1/7 Americans can't afford to get it. That system is broken. There has been time to fix it and nothing has been done by the private sector except exacerbate the problems and raise rates for everyone.

Second, we already have someone who has "spent every penny they can draw against the credit line". With six years of Bushit and a Republican Congress they loaded $4Trillion on the National Debt. You are only making assumptions that a Democrat would do worse. Look back to the Clinton years where there was an actual surplus budget and reduction of Debt.

If you want Fiscal Conservative and Social Liberal you have to go with Bill Clinton. He pretty much defined the genre.

Now as for your problem with the RIAA and MPAA, those are just minor weirdness that don't need even a single minute of the national conversation. There are many more important things that need straightened out first.

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post #12 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:15 PM
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Why can't we get a "moderate" someone who is fiscally conservative and socially liberal? Someone who does not want to completly fuck up our healthcare by involving the gov't anymore than they already are. Someone who does not want to spend every penny they can draw against the credit line. Someone who will not bow to RIAA, MPAA, etc.
That describes a libertarian, not a moderate. Clinton and McCain both fall squarely under the tag of moderate. We had/have a libertarian running for the GOP nomination this very election. Do you support him? I know I do.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #13 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:17 PM
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If you want Fiscal Conservative and Social Liberal you have to go with Bill Clinton. He pretty much defined the genre.
Clinton was a far cry from a fiscal conservative. OTOH, he was the closest thing to a fiscal conservative that the WH had seen in more than a generation.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #14 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Ralph could fit the bill... but I have a feeling you would not consider it for other reasons which are:

No car enthusiast could support Ralph after he killed the Corvair.
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post #15 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:33 PM Thread Starter
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That describes a libertarian, not a moderate. Clinton and McCain both fall squarely under the tag of moderate. We had/have a libertarian running for the GOP nomination this very election. Do you support him? I know I do.

The libertarians go a bit far in my book. Although they are certainly a better choice than the two major parties.
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post #16 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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First, our healthcare is already completely fucked if 1/7 Americans can't afford to get it. That system is broken. There has been time to fix it and nothing has been done by the private sector except exacerbate the problems and raise rates for everyone.
The healthcare system does need to be fixed but greater gov't involvement is like killing the patient to cure him.

I have yet to hear anyone make a worthwhile suggestion on how to fix it.

Also the statistics around the number of Americans without Healthcare and the even greater BS numbers stating how many people can't afford health ins have been so manipulated and politicized as to have no basis in reality.

Billy Bob was far from a fiscal consverative. Unless of course you compare him to the current administration.
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post #17 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:46 PM
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Clinton was a far cry from a fiscal conservative. OTOH, he was the closest thing to a fiscal conservative that the WH had seen in more than a generation.
Actually if you look at the policies of Robert Rubin, Greenspan and Clinton for that eight year period they were very conservative, not only reducing deficit spending but actually cutting into debt. They tightened down the size of government and pissed off a bunch of democrats in the process. They also had the help of the first wave of a Republican Congress who, along with a veto wielding President, kept the budget in check. Ah, the days of checks and balances and cooperation.

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post #18 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:46 PM
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The libertarians go a bit far in my book. Although they are certainly a better choice than the two major parties.
Here is a case in point to determine if you are really for fiscal conservatism. I believe the concepts of fiscal conservatism and global imperialism are diametrically juxtaposed. IOW, you cannot support small government, while also supporting the presence of U.S. military troops in 135 nations across the globe. Nothing costs more money and requires more manpower and bureaucracy than trying to maintain military control and financial dominance throughout the entire world. The GOP charter supports both, but we both know that's a lie....

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post #19 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 06:48 PM
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Actually if you look at the policies of Robert Rubin, Greenspan and Clinton for that eight year period they were very conservative, not only reducing deficit spending but actually cutting into debt. They tightened down the size of government and pissed off a bunch of democrats in the process. They also had the help of the first wave of a Republican Congress who, along with a veto wielding President, kept the budget in check. Ah, the days of checks and balances and cooperation.
Yes, but that was a path he was forced down to a large extent. You cannot support national health care and claim fiscal conservatism -- period.

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post #20 of 75 (permalink) Old 02-28-2008, 07:07 PM
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The healthcare system does need to be fixed but greater gov't involvement is like killing the patient to cure him.

I have yet to hear anyone make a worthwhile suggestion on how to fix it.

Also the statistics around the number of Americans without Healthcare and the even greater BS numbers stating how many people can't afford health ins have been so manipulated and politicized as to have no basis in reality.

Billy Bob was far from a fiscal consverative. Unless of course you compare him to the current administration.
Well, sometimes, as in some leukemia patients, that is what has to happen to get positive results. You have to kill the bad to save the good.

As for hearing any worthwhile suggestions, have you actually read any of the 4 major proposals that are floating around right now? I mean READ them, not get the talk show 30 second synopsis of them.

Half my family is in medicine and the other half is in systems analysis so we have unbearable discussions on these things on a regular basis, actually getting into the meat of the issues, not the fluff that the talkradio or Cable TV guys yammer about. And there are solutions out there but they are not going to be simple and they are not going to be easy for anyone.

As for the number of of folks who can't get Healthcare or don't have access to it being BS, sorry but the numbers are very much based in reality. They are simple numbers to track and count. No magic or smoke required. Most, if not all come from the Department of Labor, the Census Bureau and the BLS tables. Others come from SSA and the collective numbers of the 50 states which track who is who. It's really pretty simple.

If healthcare is your primary concern during this election cycle go out and read all the programs, don't just skim them. I always ask myself what is best for everyone and then I ask what would be best for a member of my family on a fixed income?

I already know that the excesses of the past eight years are going to cost me more in taxes just to pay the interest. I figure there will also be a uptick to cover infrastructure that has been ignored and another uptick to eliminate some of the deficit spending [paygo] that has been keeping things running [or we will keep deficit spending]. So the added taxes are already coming. If there is a bit more to make sure everyone has health insurance, that is the least of my reasons to whine about higher taxes.

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