The signs are everywhere, "movement" conservatism is dying - Page 7 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #61 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 09:13 PM
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No, he clearly wasn't elected by liberals, just as he wasn't elected by conservatives. Political persuasion is not limited to two flavors.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #62 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 09:14 PM
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Sarah Silverman weighs in “I really think everything is fair game.” (NSFW)

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.... a few goals of conservatism. Conservatives do not support legalization of dope & sin. Conservatives oppose abortion.

B
I was going to get an abortion the other day. I totally wanted an abortion. And it turns out I was just thirsty.

~~~~~~~~~~

Let me tell you a little story about a time I gave up. About ten years ago I got pregnant and everyone around me wanted me to give up and have the baby. And for about eight and a half months I listened to them. Until finally I worked up the courage to walk into that hospital and say "Get this thing out of me." And let me tell you something. Having an abortion is one of the hardest things anyone could ever do. It took hours. I had to physically push the fetus out of me. And when it came out it was crying and covered in this like gooky stuff. I didn't have the money to pay so I crawled out the window and I went home and watched In Living Color because that's what was funny back then. Heather, you have a choice. You can walk away and give birth to a failure that will haunt you the rest of your life or you can go out there and have the abortion of your dreams. So what's it gonna be?


~~~~~~~~~~

I have a ton of Holocaust stuff, and some of it is really hard core


~~~~~~~~~~


[about her half-black boyfriend] I gave him a compliment! All right, I told him he probably would've made, like, a really expensive slave in the, like, in the olden-timey days.


~~~~~~~~~~

Guess what, Martin Luther King, I had a fuckin' dream, too!


~~~~~~~~~~


I was raped by a doctor.
[pause]
Which is, you know, so bittersweet for a Jewish girl.

~~~~~~~~~~

[singing a love song] I love you more than bears love honey. / I love you more than Jews love money. / I love you more than Asians are good at math. / I love you even if it's not hip. / I love you more than black people don't tip. / I love you more than Puerto Ricans need baths. / I love you more than girls love dolls. / I love you more than dogs love balls. / I love you more than the white stuff in a zit. / I love you like Gary Busey. / I love you more than dykes love pussy. / I love you more than my after-show monster bong hit...


~~~~~~~~~~


Jesus is magic, because he turned water into wine. I think he made the statue of liberty disappear in the 80s or something.


~~~~~~~~~~


I'll tell you why we make fun of midgets: We're not afraid of them.


~~~~~~~~~~

You have to be able to laugh at yourself. That's what I tell Asian people all the time.


~~~~~~~~~~

Madonna. Angelina Jolie. Do you ever think about adopting?
If I have kids, I’ll adopt. Probably something brown.

Would you sell the baby photos to People magazine?
I’d sell the babies to People magazine.


~~~~~~~~~~

I love how Palestinians and Jews hate each other. It's so cute. Honestly, what's the difference? They're brown. They have an odour. It's like sweet potatoes hating yams.


~~~~~~~~~~

I used to go out with a guy who was half-black who totally broke up with me because I'm a fucking loser ... I just heard myself say that. I'm such a pessimist. He's half- white.

~~~~~~~~~~

Have you seen Britney's kids?" she joked. "Oh my God, they are the most adorable mistakes you will ever see! They are as cute as the hairless vagina they came out of.


~~~~~~~~~~

Jim
<--- superschnelle 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV, Hochverdichtung = high compression (11/2011) ... Wie im Freien Fall. Nur horizontal.


"I swear to god, it's like I live in a trailer of common sense, and stare out the window at a tornado of stupidity." >'='<

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post #63 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 09:19 PM
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Kirk developed six "canons" of conservatism, which Russello (2004) described as follows:
A belief in a transcendent order, which Kirk described variously as based in tradition, divine revelation, or natural law;
An affection for the "variety and mystery" of human existence;
A conviction that society requires orders and classes that emphasize "natural" distinctions;
A belief that property and freedom are closely linked;
A faith in custom, convention, and prescription, and
A recognition that innovation must be tied to existing traditions and customs, which entails a respect for the political value of prudence.
Kirk said that Christianity and Western Civilization are "unimaginable apart from one another." [5] and that "all culture arises out of religion. When religious faith decays, culture must decline, though often seeming to flourish for a space after the religion which has nourished it has sunk into disbelief." [6]
[edit]Kirk and Libertarianism
Kirk grounded his Burkean conservatism in tradition, political philosophy, belles lettres, and the strong religious faith of his later years; rather than libertarianism and free market economic reasoning. The Conservative Mind hardly mentions economics at all.
In a polemic essay, Kirk (quoting T. S. Eliot) called libertarians "chirping sectaries," adding that they and conservatives have nothing in common. He called the libertarian movement "an ideological clique forever splitting into sects still smaller and odder, but rarely conjugating." He said a line of division exists between believers in "some sort of transcendent moral order" and "utilitarians admitting no transcendent sanctions for conduct." He included libertarians in the latter category.[5][6] Kirk, therefore, questioned the "fusionism" between libertarians and traditional conservatives that marked much of post World War II conservatism in the United States.[7]
Kirk's view of "classical liberals" is positive though; he agrees with them on "ordered liberty" as they make "common cause with regular conservatives against the menace of democratic despotism and economic collectivism."[8]
Tibor R. Machan defended libertarianism in response to Kirk's original Heritage Lecture. Machan argued that the right of individual sovereignty is perhaps most worthy of conserving from the American political heritage, and that when conservatives themselves talk about preserving some tradition, they cannot at the same time claim a disrespectful distrust of the individual human mind, of rationalism itself.[9]
Jacob G. Hornberger of the Future of Freedom Foundation also responded to Kirk.[10]

more at: Russell Kirk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(good reading for everybody except McBear)
^ That shit makes we want to seek inoculation. The man must have been infected by an indoctrinal virus.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #64 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:26 PM
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^ That shit makes we want to seek inoculation. The man must have been infected by an indoctrinal virus.
He's an icon of American conservatism. So if you aren't a "neocon" (actually, many of the founders of that 'movement' are former Democrats or liberal Republicans who have a one-dimensional common bond) and you call yourself a conservative, that's your band of brothers. Some of it I have no problem with but for the most part I can't in good conscience agree with their fundamental philosophy.

And don't even let me get started on the so-called "liberals", who redefined that term because their real commitment, socialism, grew old with FDR and molded into some sort of revolting ooze in Johnson's "Great Society". Since Limbaugh so effectively outed them, they have increasingly wrapped themselves in yet another darling little label, "progressives". Who can be opposed to "progress"? Talk about disingenuous. The programs are classic socialism. Progress to the failed policies of the early 20th century. Why not just man-up and tell the fucking truth. Piss-ant cowards.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #65 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 11:57 PM
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^And yet the categorizing continues.
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post #66 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 07:45 AM
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He's an icon of American conservatism. So if you aren't a "neocon" (actually, many of the founders of that 'movement' are former Democrats or liberal Republicans who have a one-dimensional common bond) and you call yourself a conservative, that's your band of brothers. Some of it I have no problem with but for the most part I can't in good conscience agree with their fundamental philosophy.

And don't even let me get started on the so-called "liberals", who redefined that term because their real commitment, socialism, grew old with FDR and molded into some sort of revolting ooze in Johnson's "Great Society". Since Limbaugh so effectively outed them, they have increasingly wrapped themselves in yet another darling little label, "progressives". Who can be opposed to "progress"? Talk about disingenuous. The programs are classic socialism. Progress to the failed policies of the early 20th century. Why not just man-up and tell the fucking truth. Piss-ant cowards.
I find it very interesting that Kirk separates libertarians from conservatives as if he's separating wheat from chaff, but conveniently ignores the fact that libertarianism provides the one mantra that all Republicans chant above all others, small government and a small tax burden. Fact is, the GOP is further removed from this ideal than their opponents. So when I latch onto 'conservative' as "cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate", it is because that is how I see them presenting themselves, and because I have always seen Barry Goldwater as the archetypal conservative, a view which Mr. Kirk clearly finds laughable.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #67 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 10:56 AM
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I find it very interesting that Kirk separates libertarians from conservatives as if he's separating wheat from chaff, but conveniently ignores the fact that libertarianism provides the one mantra that all Republicans chant above all others, small government and a small tax burden. Fact is, the GOP is further removed from this ideal than their opponents. So when I latch onto 'conservative' as "cautiously moderate or purposefully low: a conservative estimate", it is because that is how I see them presenting themselves, and because I have always seen Barry Goldwater as the archetypal conservative, a view which Mr. Kirk clearly finds laughable.
That is classical political strategy -- adopt the words and ignore the initiative. It works for the Republicans every 4 years with most fiscally conservative, libertarian-leaning voters. If that fails then they say, "You think I'm bad, look at those weirdoes in the Democrat Party!!!" That one worked on me for about 15-20 years. No more.

The Democrat party does it every 4 years, too. they have folks who want the party to shift farther leftward and every 4 years they get flirted with coyly and then abandoned at the altar. For example, when was the last time Congress tried to tie the administrations hands in Iraq? I can't remember a time since the presidential election season began. Why not? Because it would force the Democrat Party candidates to publicly make a commitment on one side or the other funding the war......issue. So guess what, funding was quietly passed without ado. Cynical? ha!

It's why I detest both parties. Neither party has a soul, they just want power and they will say and do anything the can get away with to accumulate it. Look at what our local Fanatical Total Lackey will do and say to or about anybody whom he thinks threatens his party's chances. It's about power, not principle.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #68 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:35 AM
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Is Buckley a conservative?
Bot

------------------

Q: Can you give us a concise definition of conservatism?

A: Conservatism aims to maintain in working order the loyalties of the community to perceived truths and also to those truths which in their judgment have earned universal recognition.

Now this leaves room, of course, for deposition, and there is deposition -- the Civil War being the most monstrous account. But it also urges a kind of loyalty that breeds a devotion to those ideals sufficient to surmount the current crisis. When the Soviet Union challenged America and our set of loyalties, it did so at gunpoint. It became necessary at a certain point to show them our clenched fist and advise them that we were not going to deal lightly with our primal commitment to preserve those loyalties.

That’s the most general definition of conservatism.

Q: In American politics, in the day-to-day political struggle, what is conservatism? How does it manifest itself?

A: I think it manifests itself at different levels. It is more provoked by Soviet challenges than it is by challenges in trivial quarters by local school teachers. People always continue to ask themselves are they furthering the cause of conservatism by accepting this quarrel or that quarrel and inevitably we reach a situation -– especially because of the politicization of our culture -– in which it’s impossible absolutely to say whether John Jones by voting Democratic is manifestly entitled to the gratitude of conservatives rather than if he had voted Republican. So there is that diffusion and the difficulty in concentrating in a few words all the ideals involved.

Much depends, of course, on the emphasis that is placed on them, so that all of that must be kept in mind. I thought it was awfully well done by Russell Kirk in his book “What is Conservatism?,” which I thoroughly recommend.

more at: Townhall.com::William F. Buckley Jr. on Conservatism: An Interview::By Bill Steigerwald



more at: Russell Kirk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(good reading for everybody except McBear)
Actually, that's a pretty good wiki but if I want to read about Kirk's views on Conservatism, I just get the book off the shelf in my office. It IS a very good read.

The problem with Buckley and Kirk's views area that, as Kirk points out, the NeoCons have usurped much of the conservative mantle. While this allows us to have a very good Buckley classic definition of Conservative, it rings hollow and anachronistic as much of the Republican Party has moved so far from those principles that it is not the same party.

So the original question still exists. Is the "movement" conservatism dying? And we have to use the definition that exists NOW, not as Buckley envisioned it even 30 years ago as Reagan came into office.

What is the state of the current movement, shaped by Bill Kristol, Newt Gingrich, GW Bush, Karl Rove, James Dobson, Pat Robertson? This is the group that built up back breaking massive debt, destroyed foreign relationships that had been in place for centuries and weakened our financial base to where we are fully dependent on global bailouts to prop up our financial and manufacturing sectors.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #69 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:54 AM
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And don't even let me get started on the so-called "liberals", who redefined that term because their real commitment, socialism, grew old with FDR and molded into some sort of revolting ooze in Johnson's "Great Society". Since Limbaugh so effectively outed them, they have increasingly wrapped themselves in yet another darling little label, "progressives". Who can be opposed to "progress"? Talk about disingenuous. The programs are classic socialism. Progress to the failed policies of the early 20th century. Why not just man-up and tell the fucking truth. Piss-ant cowards.
Are you talking about the 1870 progressives, the 1925 progressives, the 1939 progressives, the 1966 progressives, the 1985 progressives, the 1996 progressives or the current crop? Throughout the Democratic party's history the term progressive has been used to talk about "moving forward" policies.

On the other hand, from what I have been seeing/reading there are no negative repercussions of Rush's "outting" of the term liberal. I think most folks on the left are pretty comfortable with liberal thinking.

As for "failed policies of the early 20th Century". If it were not for many of those policies your great state of Louisiana would still be a backwater bastion of poverty and illiteracy, much like the rest of the South which lacked the tax base to pull its own weight.

McBear,
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post #70 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:00 PM
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If it were not for many of those policies your great state of Louisiana would still be a backwater bastion of poverty and illiteracy, much like the rest of the South which lacked the tax base to pull its own weight.
Are you suggesting that something's changed?
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