The signs are everywhere, "movement" conservatism is dying - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 06:21 PM
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Those who think conservatism is dead should recall that the last election where a Gimmiecrat candidate achieved more than half the popular vote was Jimmie Carter, and then only by a little.

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post #52 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 06:26 PM
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^ What does that have to do with anything? Conservatism may not be dead, but it is on life-support, and it's our current POTUS and his minions that put it there.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #53 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 06:48 PM
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^ What does that have to do with anything? Conservatism may not be dead, but it is on life-support, and it's our current POTUS and his minions that put it there.
Conservatism, when properly defined, is far from dead. Less taxes, less spending, less government remains a good thing. Equating religiosity (did I spell that right?), some of GW's activities, and our free spending GOP controlled congress to conservatism is incorrect, and if an election failure will eradicate it, that is good. When conservatism returns in its true form, it will overwhelm liberalism.

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post #54 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 06:57 PM
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One presidential candidate made a valiant effort to rekindle true conservatism within the GOP, one which fell dismally short and even prompted ridicule from our mainstream media and his opponents. His message resonated loudly with some, perhaps the impact of his candidacy will be felt in future elections. One can only hope...

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #55 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:23 PM
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One presidential candidate made a valiant effort to rekindle true conservatism within the GOP, one which fell dismally short and even prompted ridicule from our mainstream media and his opponents. His message resonated loudly with some, perhaps the impact of his candidacy will be felt in future elections. One can only hope...
Yes.

And in actual point of fact, he only shares a few goals of conservatism. Conservatives do not support legalization of dope & sin. Conservatives oppose abortion. Conservatives oppose legal recognition of homosexual couples. Conservatives oppose most liberalization of most immigration issues. Conservatives believe in a strong, aggressive foreign policy focused on American self-interest and a strong military.

he shares just about as much in common with self-described liberals as he does with conservatives.

Ron Paul agrees with some and disagrees with others but I doubt even he would self-describe as conservative. He would go farther back in American history and claim fraternity with the founding brothers.

Conservatives cannot honestly make that claim and neither can what we now call "liberals". Both are big-gov interventionists that hate the other guys interventionism but love their own. Ron Paul hates all government interventionism of any kind.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #56 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:27 PM
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Yes.

And in actual point of fact, he only shares a few goals of conservatism. Conservatives do not support legalization of dope & sin. Conservatives oppose abortion. Conservatives oppose legal recognition of homosexual couples. Conservatives oppose most liberalization of most immigration issues. Conservatives believe in a strong, aggressive foreign policy focused on American self-interest and a strong military.

he shares just about as much in common with self-described liberals as he does with conservatives.

Ron Paul agrees with some and disagrees with others but I doubt even he would self-describe as conservative. He would go farther back in American history and claim fraternity with the founding brothers.

Conservatives cannot honestly make that claim and neither can what we now call "liberals". Both are big-gov interventionists that hate the other guys interventionism but love their own. Ron Paul hates all government interventionism of any kind.

B
Would you really include most of those positions with conservatism?

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post #57 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:28 PM
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Would you really include most of those positions with conservatism?
Ask Bill Buckley or one of the other silverbacks of American conservatism. They spell it out quite plainly and defend it vigorously.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

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post #58 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:34 PM
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Are you sure you aren't confusing conservatives with folks who call themselves conservative? Anything that leads away from smaller central government is not conservative. Spending more money than is available is not conservative. Aggressive foreign policy is not conservative, since it typically requires both deficit spending and an engorged federal bureaucracy.

As long as nationalists and national socialists continue to promote a social agenda under the name of conservatism, the national anti-true-conservative nightmare will continue to propagate.

"If spending money you don't have is the height of stupidity, borrowing money to give it away is the height of insanity." -- anon
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post #59 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:42 PM
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Are you sure you aren't confusing conservatives with folks who call themselves conservative? Anything that leads away from smaller central government is not conservative. Spending more money than is available is not conservative. Aggressive foreign policy is not conservative, since it typically requires both deficit spending and an engorged federal bureaucracy.

As long as nationalists and national socialists continue to promote a social agenda under the name of conservatism, the national anti-true-conservative nightmare will continue to propagate.
Is Buckley a conservative?
Bot

------------------

Q: Can you give us a concise definition of conservatism?

A: Conservatism aims to maintain in working order the loyalties of the community to perceived truths and also to those truths which in their judgment have earned universal recognition.

Now this leaves room, of course, for deposition, and there is deposition -- the Civil War being the most monstrous account. But it also urges a kind of loyalty that breeds a devotion to those ideals sufficient to surmount the current crisis. When the Soviet Union challenged America and our set of loyalties, it did so at gunpoint. It became necessary at a certain point to show them our clenched fist and advise them that we were not going to deal lightly with our primal commitment to preserve those loyalties.

That’s the most general definition of conservatism.

Q: In American politics, in the day-to-day political struggle, what is conservatism? How does it manifest itself?

A: I think it manifests itself at different levels. It is more provoked by Soviet challenges than it is by challenges in trivial quarters by local school teachers. People always continue to ask themselves are they furthering the cause of conservatism by accepting this quarrel or that quarrel and inevitably we reach a situation -– especially because of the politicization of our culture -– in which it’s impossible absolutely to say whether John Jones by voting Democratic is manifestly entitled to the gratitude of conservatives rather than if he had voted Republican. So there is that diffusion and the difficulty in concentrating in a few words all the ideals involved.

Much depends, of course, on the emphasis that is placed on them, so that all of that must be kept in mind. I thought it was awfully well done by Russell Kirk in his book “What is Conservatism?,” which I thoroughly recommend.

more at: Townhall.com::William F. Buckley Jr. on Conservatism: An Interview::By Bill Steigerwald

------

Principles
Kirk developed six "canons" of conservatism, which Russello (2004) described as follows:
A belief in a transcendent order, which Kirk described variously as based in tradition, divine revelation, or natural law;
An affection for the "variety and mystery" of human existence;
A conviction that society requires orders and classes that emphasize "natural" distinctions;
A belief that property and freedom are closely linked;
A faith in custom, convention, and prescription, and
A recognition that innovation must be tied to existing traditions and customs, which entails a respect for the political value of prudence.
Kirk said that Christianity and Western Civilization are "unimaginable apart from one another." [5] and that "all culture arises out of religion. When religious faith decays, culture must decline, though often seeming to flourish for a space after the religion which has nourished it has sunk into disbelief." [6]
[edit]Kirk and Libertarianism
Kirk grounded his Burkean conservatism in tradition, political philosophy, belles lettres, and the strong religious faith of his later years; rather than libertarianism and free market economic reasoning. The Conservative Mind hardly mentions economics at all.
In a polemic essay, Kirk (quoting T. S. Eliot) called libertarians "chirping sectaries," adding that they and conservatives have nothing in common. He called the libertarian movement "an ideological clique forever splitting into sects still smaller and odder, but rarely conjugating." He said a line of division exists between believers in "some sort of transcendent moral order" and "utilitarians admitting no transcendent sanctions for conduct." He included libertarians in the latter category.[5][6] Kirk, therefore, questioned the "fusionism" between libertarians and traditional conservatives that marked much of post World War II conservatism in the United States.[7]
Kirk's view of "classical liberals" is positive though; he agrees with them on "ordered liberty" as they make "common cause with regular conservatives against the menace of democratic despotism and economic collectivism."[8]
Tibor R. Machan defended libertarianism in response to Kirk's original Heritage Lecture. Machan argued that the right of individual sovereignty is perhaps most worthy of conserving from the American political heritage, and that when conservatives themselves talk about preserving some tradition, they cannot at the same time claim a disrespectful distrust of the individual human mind, of rationalism itself.[9]
Jacob G. Hornberger of the Future of Freedom Foundation also responded to Kirk.[10]

more at: Russell Kirk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(good reading for everybody except McBear)

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

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post #60 of 80 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 08:55 PM
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^ What does that have to do with anything? Conservatism may not be dead, but it is on life-support, and it's our current POTUS and his minions that put it there.
I just believe in looking for objective measures of political intent, rather than simplistic rhetoric. If the strength of conservatism is to be challenged, doesn't it seem reasonable that it would be challenged in the opposition political party? As I recall the President got the largest popular vote in 2004 in election history, and well above the 50% mark. He hasn't governed as a true conservative, but I don't think you would argue he was elected by liberals.

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