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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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So, whadda we got?

Listening to the media, the Presidential race has now boiled down to three people, and most people will have (by now) written off everyone else because of the slippery slope so many others have fallen down by not wanting to vote for anyone that their neighbors or co-workers will say "What the fuck's wrong with you, idiot?" for mentioning.

That said, I'm wondering if anyone is seeing the person they really want to win still in the race.

Additionally, I'm wondering who wins the compromised-personal-beliefs olympics for the rest of us.


Obama - this choice seems like it's largely style over substance. He hasn't said much about what he's for, or what he will do, but what he has said is cause for alarm if you're not a socialist. Is he anti-war? That might be worth something.

Hillary - I fail to see any rationality that withstands scrutiny for voting another Clinton into office, to say nothing of the myriad nightmarish scenarios her rubber stamp could create. She's the Democrat version of George Bush, complete with penis.

McCain - The choice of staunch anti-Democrats, moderates/liberals, old people, war vets, and those who think it's okay if we stay in Iraq another 100 years no matter the cost.


This is what we've boiled down to? Man, we suck...


Conservatism is alive at my office. The argument for McCain, despite his position on Iraq, is that he isn't walking around talking about communistic health care programs which will only bleed us dry faster than BushCo could dream. I must admit, I feel as if I'd gone soft, in light of the argument against withdrawal in Iraq.

* Our armed forces are volunteers. They're professionals. They do a very dangerous job, on purpose. Diving into their psyche or debating the morality of how they're employed is an exercise in mental masturbation. The facts remain - they're professionals, and in the service because they willingly chose to be.

* More of our military people have died in peace time outside any theaters of conflict, by sheer accident, than have died in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. More people died last year on our highways than died in Iraq. More people were shot & killed in America than died in "war torn, insurgent-dominated" Iraq. Death rates in times of conflict have never been lower than in Iraq & Afghanistan.

* The surge is working by every meaningful measure.

* History is replete with examples of countries (not just ours) pitching in to help another nation fight a battle they couldn't fight themselves. Think back to colonial America and France (they kind of helped us become independent), and work your way forward. We were lied to, we weren't lied to - doesn't matter anymore. We're up to our balls in $2 trillion (right?) spent in Iraq, and all things considered, leaving makes no sense.


Here's where I came down.

- If I knew Congress wasn't a bunch of spineless cunts, I'd vote McCain. The war aside, he's the best choice (other than Ron Paul); it'd be up to Congress to cut off funding.

- If we can't count on Congress, I'd vote for Obama, and I'd probably be pretty pissed about it come February 2009.

Our great experiment is nearing it's end.
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 08:45 PM
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A clusterfuck, sir.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 09:55 PM
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I disagree, Obama's 45 minute victory speech (for Wisconsin) tonight in Houston had a lot of substance, did you see it?
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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No. Did he talk about specific things he wanted to accomplish, including verbs and actionable items?
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 10:00 PM
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McCain is an interesting choice. Regarding Iraq, I understand your thoughts regarding the "we're there, may as well stay and get the job done". Problem is, there really is no defined job. When McCain says we might be there 100 years, I think he means "If WE want things to go OUR way WE have to keep a stabilizing force in the area forever." I hope that is not what he means but I can find no suggestion or plan otherwise.

Clinton is the most status quo candidate of the three. More conservative on many issues than the Republicans care to look at and the Democrats like. She is the most politically connected of the group [since McCain as pissed off over half the Republicans]. Her healthcare plan is large, her Iraq policy is ambiguous and her support of offshoring is offensive to many Democrats.

Obama is not really style over substance, he has more elected experience than Clinton [although part was in Illinois] and he has shown more ability to network with his peers in the Senate that Clinton. Not as much as McCain who will go across the aisle more than most. Obama's healthcare plan is not as strong as Clinton's but he has shown more interest in the poor than she, or McCain has. I think much of the "style" issue is that he is a powerful speaker and the other two are not.

Healthcare. It is one of the biggest flags that seems to go up during this election. I have seen more misinformation and outright FUD on it than anything else. Some is valid, most is not.

We are preparing to have the largest generation of taxpayers become the largest generation of benefits receivers in history. 1/7 people in this country don't have ANY insurance, or ability to get it. A major economic downturn will only exacerbate the issue.

Right now the system is broken. It works very well for some but not at all for others. That means it is broken. It is only going to get worse, not better by itself through "free market" or other corporate solutions. They have been tried and they have failed costing hundreds of billions of bailout dollars. Something has to be done, Someone has to have a plan. The Republicans had six years to work on the problem with total control and did NOTHING.

Someone is going to have to fix healthcare, social security, medicare and the pharmacy issues for the people of this country. It is not going to fix itself and it is currently broken.

If someone on the right wants to provide a better solution, they have certainly had the time, position and power to do so. They did NOT. The right needs to quit using it as a Red Herring of FUD to avoid talking about the issues it failed to address.

It only makes sense to get someone in the White House that will start an initiative, let the Congress give it ample debate on all sides and build up a system that works for ALL Americans. Somehow that seems like the American Way.

McBear,
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Last edited by mcbear; 02-19-2008 at 10:02 PM.
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 10:55 PM
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No. Did he talk about specific things he wanted to accomplish, including verbs and actionable items?
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 11:10 PM
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No. Did he talk about specific things he wanted to accomplish, including verbs and actionable items?

Yes he did, almost for the entire 45 minutes
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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 11:25 PM
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The Republican party remains FIRMLY under the grasp of the far right, so-called Conservatives, many of whom despise Mc Cain as being "Too liberal".

They had their chance, and have wrecked their party and this country, and hopefully, are likely doomed to irrelevancy, as their brand of theocracy, fearmongering, paranoia and savage attacks against the opposition are just becoming so much more noise.

The right wing Republicans have propagated and engendered so much hatred, it would seem to give one grim satisfaction to vote Hillary in, just to for the grim satisfaction of getting revenge on them. They are a vicious, venomous, Hitlerian crowd, totally unapologetic.

One candidate wants to reverse the "Mistake of the century", another wants to continue it, and Mc Cain wants to guarantee it continued for another 100 years at least.

That fact alone, seems to suggest Obama will be the next President. The public sentiment seems to be the Iraqi game is no longer worth the candle, and the cost is too high and yielding no benefits.

The old "If we don't fight them over there we will have to fight them over here" won't hold up any more with the American public any more, even if a good many of voting age are too young to remember when the "Domino Theory" was peddled as a reason to fight on forever in Vietnam

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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QBNCGAR View Post
Listening to the media, the Presidential race has now boiled down to three people, and most people will have (by now) written off everyone else because of the slippery slope so many others have fallen down by not wanting to vote for anyone that their neighbors or co-workers will say "What the fuck's wrong with you, idiot?" for mentioning.

That said, I'm wondering if anyone is seeing the person they really want to win still in the race.

Additionally, I'm wondering who wins the compromised-personal-beliefs olympics for the rest of us.


Obama - this choice seems like it's largely style over substance. He hasn't said much about what he's for, or what he will do, but what he has said is cause for alarm if you're not a socialist. Is he anti-war? That might be worth something.

Hillary - I fail to see any rationality that withstands scrutiny for voting another Clinton into office, to say nothing of the myriad nightmarish scenarios her rubber stamp could create. She's the Democrat version of George Bush, complete with penis.

McCain - The choice of staunch anti-Democrats, moderates/liberals, old people, war vets, and those who think it's okay if we stay in Iraq another 100 years no matter the cost.


This is what we've boiled down to? Man, we suck...


Conservatism is alive at my office. The argument for McCain, despite his position on Iraq, is that he isn't walking around talking about communistic health care programs which will only bleed us dry faster than BushCo could dream. I must admit, I feel as if I'd gone soft, in light of the argument against withdrawal in Iraq.

* Our armed forces are volunteers. They're professionals. They do a very dangerous job, on purpose. Diving into their psyche or debating the morality of how they're employed is an exercise in mental masturbation. The facts remain - they're professionals, and in the service because they willingly chose to be.

* More of our military people have died in peace time outside any theaters of conflict, by sheer accident, than have died in the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts. More people died last year on our highways than died in Iraq. More people were shot & killed in America than died in "war torn, insurgent-dominated" Iraq. Death rates in times of conflict have never been lower than in Iraq & Afghanistan.

* The surge is working by every meaningful measure.

* History is replete with examples of countries (not just ours) pitching in to help another nation fight a battle they couldn't fight themselves. Think back to colonial America and France (they kind of helped us become independent), and work your way forward. We were lied to, we weren't lied to - doesn't matter anymore. We're up to our balls in $2 trillion (right?) spent in Iraq, and all things considered, leaving makes no sense.


Here's where I came down.

- If I knew Congress wasn't a bunch of spineless cunts, I'd vote McCain. The war aside, he's the best choice (other than Ron Paul); it'd be up to Congress to cut off funding.

- If we can't count on Congress, I'd vote for Obama, and I'd probably be pretty pissed about it come February 2009.

Our great experiment is nearing it's end.
Here's another pic for your sig...


Don't believe everything you think
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