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post #81 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R. View Post
“IMO the current US system of gun ownership is failing as it was over here. But it seems we in Australia were lucky and were able to "wind back" from descending into the chaos that the US seems to be getting, on an everyday basis. I suppose in the US you would simply get used to the situation.


I'm not anti-gun but I feel somehow a solution to the problem should be required.”


There IS a solution, and it’s putting away those that kill and maim and either never let them out of prison or just plain eliminate them from the population.
That seems to be a problem for the liberal judges we have here now. The problem is not the guns, it never was, the problem is the bad guys that get back out on the streets before the cop that arrested them finishes the paperwork required to put them in jail. Typically the first things that are plea bargained away are the firearms charges, and yet that is the first things that the population seizes on as an excuse to try and blame everything on.
Australia also has violent and career criminals released early all the time, yet our murder rate is bugger all compared to the US.
Jail villain gets parole deal | Herald Sun
Fury as killer Anthony Stone is released from jail | Herald Sun
Sadistic rapist on supervised release | Herald Sun

Everything from rapists, murderers and drug dealers seem to get lighter sentencing. They take a plea bargain or become informers and somehow get let off with a grossly reduced sentence only to commit the crime again.

This is still only a percentage of what is going on and doesn't come close to the issues with children who load up with assault rifles and go to school or adults who do the same at work.

The issues with overcrowding jails is probably a similar story the world over yet the stats still show that the ratio of guns per capita is the likely problem.
Building more jails and increasing jail sentences may reduce the problem slightly but honestly do you think it's a "magic bullet" to the problem
The opportunity to kill through the vast numbers of legal and illegal guns won't go away with reducing that problem alone.

Slightly of subject

I was talking with a guy at a pub last week who lost everything to this prick 3 years ago and at 40 he had to start again from scratch.
HIH victims still suffering | Herald Sun
This guy said with the cost of jailing these assholes it would be easier if a slush fund was put together so people with terminal diseases could arm up and remove the waste of society. Then their families would get a nice cash bonus so the wife and kids are taken care off. He was a heavy smoker and he said if the big C go hold of him he would like to do everything in his power to level the score. It was probably the beer talking when he said it but I could understand his frustration at the system.

Andrew

"That's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live forever"- Lemmy

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post #82 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 08:48 AM
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You had me right up until you got all personal. There's nothing in the Second that indicates explicitly anything about applying to individuals at all--that's entirely your interpretation, which is exactly my point. In fact, you have to get to the Third (and more so, the Fourth and Fifth) before the BoR explicitly stipulates a right bestowed upon the individual person.
Let's go back a bit farther then the Constitution.
When the settlers came to this country they brought their guns with them (and they didn't have many back then) to protect themselves. The King wasn't able to protect his colony because his reaction time was a bit long, so he did in fact encourage the settlers to arm themselves. That came back to bite him during the Revolution.
The BoR was based around those facts, that self protection was the way to go, and that no central government could control with absolute power.
The fact that you might not understand that the whole of the BoR has to do with individual freedoms really is a mystery to me.

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post #83 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 09:31 AM
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The BoR was based around those facts, that self protection was the way to go, and that no central government could control with absolute power.
The fact that you might not understand that the whole of the BoR has to do with individual freedoms really is a mystery to me.
It's a mystery to me as well, 'cause that's not what it states at all. The BoR strikes me as an ambiguous mishmash of state, collective and individual rights, so it's up to individual interpretation as to the depth of scope and reach of each "right". I think lots of folks have just taken it on faith that the Second confers to them the right to do stuff that it really doesn't--I'm just pointing that out. For the most part, I could fucking care less one way or the other.
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post #84 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:20 AM
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It's a mystery to me as well, 'cause that's not what it states at all. The BoR strikes me as an ambiguous mishmash of state, collective and individual rights, so it's up to individual interpretation as to the depth of scope and reach of each "right". I think lots of folks have just taken it on faith that the Second confers to them the right to do stuff that it really doesn't--I'm just pointing that out. For the most part, I could fucking care less one way or the other.
OK, then to who, or what, does the First Amendment pertain to?
The State?
The Feds?
The individual?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
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post #85 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:35 AM
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Actually I’m more of an AK/SKS/Saiga man – never cared for AR’S and tacticool Tupperware guns, too expensive. I can buy two nice AKs for the price of a better AR. The M1928 is ok but really useless overall – you can enjoy some productive target practice with an AK, the better builds can be quite accurate. The commies made some excellent guns – and still do (of course they’re not commies anymore – sort of). I’ve got a Czech vz 58 on the short list of guns next to get. If it’s former Eastern Bloc I’m interested. Other desirable classic auto loaders would be the M1a and the SVT 40 – sadly the former is very expensive and the latter rare (and getting expensive).

I have a few AK's in both 7.62 and 5.45 calibers. They are fun to shoot, but the accuracy seems poor typically. Tends to be more of a bullet hose then a precision rifle. 1" groups at 100 yards is a rare gun indeed, not so with the typical AR style.
I have a few SKS rifles. That's a gun that was and still is IMHO a good rifle. I have Russian, Yugoslavian, Albanian, and Chinese versions. Better I think then the AK, but without the firepower.


Needless to say the gun-owning community is in a tizzy over the pending election – dire predictions of a leftist government takeover have everyone believing a new AWB will be on the books shortly thereafter. If the lower court’s decision in Parker/Heller is upheld bans and other gun control legislation will be less likely.

Don’t forget the pistols, Dig, you’ll need a sidearm when the SHTF.

Ah, the classic 1911:




I have the WW I and WW II commemeratives (all 6, and all the same S/N) that Colt came out with a number of years ago. The hand engraving on those is something to behold.......
I have a Colt Combat Elite that I shoot, love that thing...




"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
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post #86 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:35 AM
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OK, then to who, or what, does the First Amendment pertain to?
The State?
The Feds?
The individual?
That's a good question, and like I stated before, it doesn't look as if the BoR explicitly addresses individual "rights" until you get to the Third, Fourth and Fifth. It appears to ambiguously address the collective we the people, which then calls into question what "rights" we enjoy as individuals as we shout fire in the crowded theatre.
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post #87 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:40 AM
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Was it good for you as it was for....nevermind, just make sure you don't slip in your own goo
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post #88 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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post #89 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:47 AM
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That's a good question, and like I stated before, it doesn't look as if the BoR explicitly addresses individual "rights" until you get to the Third, Fourth and Fifth. It appears to ambiguously address the collective we the people, which then calls into question what "rights" we enjoy as individuals as we shout fire in the crowded theatre.
With freedom comes responsibility, it seems unfortunate that some are willing to exercise their freedoms but are far less interested in the responsibility that goes with it, hence the penalty for shouting fire (etc.)
The same would hold true with the Second Amendment, there are limits, I can agree with that, but what are the limits to be, and who defines those limits? That is where the question comes under close scrutiny.
I have a real problem defending a company that calls it’s firearm a “Street Sweeper” … duh. In this day and age of extreme PC something like that is well past stupid, but the ban on .50 BMG caliber rifles like that in California is just as stupid, or banning rifles because they LOOK intimidating…………
Foolishness in the first degree.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
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post #90 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 10:50 AM
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Was it good for you as it was for....nevermind, just make sure you don't slip in your own goo
I may be off base here, but it seems you are getting a bit juvenile aren't you?

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
Vladimir Putin

"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
Justice Clarence Thomas
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