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post #71 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by A&L's300SL View Post
The population estimate in 2008 for the US is 303,223,000 and the Australian population estimate is 21,180,000. So the US has 14.3x our population but you have on 2004 figures 202.5x our gun related murders.

WOW Yet somehow people think there is no problem with guns.

The UK even makes Australia look bad as we have about 1/3 of the UK population but about 2/3 of its gun related murders.

I think the 2nd Amendment was written in a time when you had no real army and you certainly didn't have the drug issues you and the rest of the world has now.
The problem isn't with the guns; the crimes committed in the US are far and away committed by repeat offenders, people that have been released from prisons by liberal judges that think they know better than everybody else what is in the criminal mind.
You bring up the point about the drug problem. Here in the DC area, the gang bangers are the ones shooting each other, and that may actually be a good thing, it helps get rid of the trash. Unfortunately there are a lot if innocents that get hurt in the crossfire, that can not, and should not be tolerated.
I can’t find the back up data right now, but something over 90% of the weapons used in crimes were stolen, and never recovered. The law abiding citizen shouldn’t have to pay for what the bad guys do on a routine basis, and for what law enforcement and (mainly) the courts have allowed to happen.

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post #72 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 05:17 AM
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Simple, it's impossible for someone to shoot another without guns.
For example, Germany has very strict gun laws, and 1.24 gun related death per 100,000 people, the USA has 14.24! (1998 numbers)

U.S. Leads Richest Nations In Gun Deaths


BY CHELSEA J. CARTER
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



ATLANTA -- The United States has by far the highest rate of gun deaths -- murders, suicides and accidents -- among the world's 36 richest nations, a government study found.
The U.S. rate for gun deaths in 1994 was 14.24 per 100,000 people. Japan had the lowest rate, at .05 per 100,000.
The study, done by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, is the first comprehensive international look at gun-related deaths. It was published Thursday in the International Journal of Epidemiology.
The CDC would not speculate why the death rates varied, but other researchers said easy access to guns and society's acceptance of violence are part of the problem in the United States.
``If you have a country saturated with guns -- available to people when they are intoxicated, angry or depressed -- it's not unusual guns will be used more often,'' said Rebecca Peters, a Johns Hopkins University fellow specializing in gun violence. ``This has to be treated as a public health emergency.''
The National Rifle Association called the study shoddy because it failed to examine all causes of violent deaths.
``What this shows is the CDC is after guns. They aren't concerned with violence. It's pretending that no homicide exists unless it's related to guns,'' said Paul Blackman, a research coordinator for the NRA in Fairfax, Va.
The 36 countries chosen were listed as the richest in the World Bank's 1994 World Development Report, with the highest GNP per capita income.
The study used 1994 statistics supplied by the 36 countries. Of the 88,649 gun deaths reported by all the countries, the United States accounted for 45 percent, said Etienne Krug, a CDC researcher and co-author of the article.
Japan, where very few people own guns, averages 124 gun-related attacks a year, and less than 1 percent end in death. Police often raid the homes of those suspected of having weapons.
The study found that gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.

Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

© Copyright 1998, The Salt Lake Tribune
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post #73 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 05:29 AM
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Don't like the way things work in the USA? Change the Constitution.

Gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #74 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 05:38 AM
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So many Dems & Libs on this forum are very pro gun, pretty scary.............
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post #75 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Uh huh, you're clearly arguing with yourself, here. I've said nothing about the State, or its functions. You seem to believe the Second implicitly refers solely to the individual, and I can easily see a compelling argument for its explicit reference to the collective we, the people.
You have said exactly what you deny: Power taken from the people is the only way that the State has power. The Bill of Rights is all about liberty and limiting government's power.

The 2nd Amendment gives the states the power to raise a militia independently of the federal government and to regulate the militia. It also retains to the people the right to raise their own well-regulated militia independent of government. It doesn't say who gets to regulate that militia. Finally, it retains the right to self-protection to the people through personal ownership of arms -- the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #76 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by A&L's300SL View Post
I love guns

I've shot M1 carbines, 308's pump action shotguns, semi auto 22's, 38's, a 44 magnum, a Glock and a 50cal Desert Eagle.

But I don't want Australia to have a "Gun Overkill society" like the USA.

Over the past 20 years we have had few terrible gun nut murder sprees and it resulted in a reduction of the types of guns I love.

Hoddle St [7 dead 19 wounded] 9/8/87
Hoddle Street massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Queens St [8 dead 5 wounded] 8/12/87
Queen Street massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Port Arthur [35 dead 37 wounded] 28/4/96
Port Arthur massacre (Australia) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Port Arthur Massacre: A Killer Among Us

Unfortunately the way it works is if I can get a semi auto rifle, so can a guy who intends to kill people.
If it's hard for me to get one, it's also hard for the nut job.

I really do like guns and I have taught my nephew how to shoot and handle a gun with responsibility but this statistic I found on a US anti-gun site makes your 2nd amendment seem a little out of date and a bit ridiculous.

http://www.stategunlaws.org/xshare/p...poster2006.pdf

The population estimate in 2008 for the US is 303,223,000 and the Australian population estimate is 21,180,000. So the US has 14.3x our population but you have on 2004 figures 202.5x our gun related murders.

WOW Yet somehow people think there is no problem with guns.

The UK even makes Australia look bad as we have about 1/3 of the UK population but about 2/3 of its gun related murders.

I think the 2nd Amendment was written in a time when you had no real army and you certainly didn't have the drug issues you and the rest of the world has now.
That is exactly why I like that we have different nations, so each of us can independently define the blessings of liberty and self-government.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #77 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce R. View Post
.......something over 90% of the weapons used in crimes were stolen, and never recovered. The law abiding citizen shouldn’t have to pay for what the bad guys do on a routine basis, and for what law enforcement and (mainly) the courts have allowed to happen.
I understand that and even see your point of view.

But unless quite miraculously the situation somehow changes, the constant additions and movements, of the ridiculous amounts of guns in the US, will make that "right to bear arms" continue to be a tragedy, for the families and people who are killed by these assholes.

But how can you reduce these statistics and fix the problem?

Australia had government buy-backs and amnesties to get the "fun" illegal guns from the population. They took a few years and caused some grief to some but hopefully the multiple murders like we had will never come back.
So far so good

The US government seems to be scared of the gun lobbies political power and financial might, as they continue to sell a product seen as almost necessary.
By a very old law which is held in an almost religious awe.

The honest gun owning citizen feels he is further "screwed" by the vocal minority who wants him to back off from buying or even hand in his arsenal.

The criminal who can buy a gun for next to nothing or steal one and alter the life of others including the innocent in an instant.

IMO the current US system of gun ownership is failing as it was over here. But it seems we in Australia were lucky and were able to "wind back" from descending into the chaos that the US seems to be getting, on an everyday basis. I suppose in the US you would simply get used to the situation.

I still miss the "old days" of semi-auto rifles while deer, fox and rabbit hunting. But looking at the US stats on firearms, I'll get over it and continue to use the bolt action when I get a chance.

I'm not anti-gun but I feel somehow a solution to the problem should be required.

Andrew

"That's the way I like it baby, I don't want to live forever"- Lemmy

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post #78 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Gun control isn't about guns, it's about control.

B
Control seems to be whats missing!

Andrew

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post #79 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 06:43 AM
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“IMO the current US system of gun ownership is failing as it was over here. But it seems we in Australia were lucky and were able to "wind back" from descending into the chaos that the US seems to be getting, on an everyday basis. I suppose in the US you would simply get used to the situation.


I'm not anti-gun but I feel somehow a solution to the problem should be required.”


There IS a solution, and it’s putting away those that kill and maim and either never let them out of prison or just plain eliminate them from the population.
That seems to be a problem for the liberal judges we have here now. The problem is not the guns, it never was, the problem is the bad guys that get back out on the streets before the cop that arrested them finishes the paperwork required to put them in jail. Typically the first things that are plea bargained away are the firearms charges, and yet that is the first things that the population seizes on as an excuse to try and blame everything on.

"Negotiating with Obama is like playing chess with a pigeon, the pigeon knocks over all the pieces, on the board and then struts around like it won the game."
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"They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?"
Paul Harvey 8/31/94


"The only people who have quick answers don't have the responsibility of making the decisions."
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post #80 of 117 (permalink) Old 01-22-2008, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
You have said exactly what you deny: Power taken from the people is the only way that the State has power. The Bill of Rights is all about liberty and limiting government's power.

The 2nd Amendment gives the states the power to raise a militia independently of the federal government and to regulate the militia. It also retains to the people the right to raise their own well-regulated militia independent of government. It doesn't say who gets to regulate that militia. Finally, it retains the right to self-protection to the people through personal ownership of arms -- the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

B
You had me right up until you got all personal. There's nothing in the Second that indicates explicitly anything about applying to individuals at all--that's entirely your interpretation, which is exactly my point. In fact, you have to get to the Third (and more so, the Fourth and Fifth) before the BoR explicitly stipulates a right bestowed upon the individual person.

If you want the absolute unfettered right to hoard guns and other killing devices that go bang, then you'll need to change the Constitution in order to allow such bizarre fetishistic antisocial behavior.

You're a statistician, right? Is a person more or less likely to be shot by a gun if they have a gun in the house?
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