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post #11 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
That reads like a mirror image of the catholic church's god-given right, nay, commandment to go forth and subdue and convert heathen filth throughout the land, and return the spoils to the pope's lair.

same shit--same deity--different name

The christians just got and earlier start at theo-imperial conquests
Quite so, convert or get to be a head shorter. Islam arrived in Iran with the Arab invaders, and just as bloody as the crusades.
Islamic conquest of Persia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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post #12 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 08:16 AM
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The problem is not what the two were teaching people it is how people have took what both teacher's have taught so far out of context and have changed what both of them really said into such a Hateful thing as it is now.

I am quite sure that Mohammed did not mean or say for his followers to hate and kill anyone who is different or has made the choice not to follow his teaching the same with Jesus..... It is the power hungry and greedy ones that see a way to twist and use what theses two great teachers said for their own personal gains because there are so many weak minded people in this world that will fall for the perverted versions of the teachings it gives the assholes like bin laudin and others the power to sway them simply by saying do it in the name of our lord..... and they will reguardless of what the task is.

That is why I really take a very negative veiw on religon since it is just another very dangerous way to control large number of people by a select few. And I am not just picking on or at Islam or any religon... it is all of them to some degree Like I am amazzed at how much power the Mormon church has over it's followers and many of them are really brain washed (I know I am in Utah!)

Religon Has its place however not like it is being used world wide to spread hate as it is doing and has been doing for years. We would perhaps be better off with out it.
Who knows? It's people who are weak of the mind need someone to tell them what to do with thier life and when to shit.... and there always has been someone that has a stronger mind with desire to control who is a total asshole.
Now that's balanced.
I do however wonder if these two did any drugs or were in cahoot with some extraterrestrial beings.
Think about it, what is the claim of either one of these two religions in terms of miracles? We Christians believe that Jesus had super human powers, he could bring birds and people back to life and make instant wine. The Muslims are in awe about their prophet's sudden ability to chant versus as if he was educated because the claim is that he was not prior to his encounter in that cave with an angel. Islam's miracle claim is the Koran while Christianity's is Jesus' life itself.
Personally I think both of those two religions and Judaism are one and the same. I really think that it all started in Egypt but I would yield the discussion for experts in here...
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post #13 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 08:53 AM
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Wonderfully insightful analysis. Thanks ever so much for sharing that for which you have obvious talent.

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post #14 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MBLR View Post
The problem is not what the two were teaching people it is how people have took what both teacher's have taught so far out of context and have changed what both of them really said into such a Hateful thing as it is now.

I am quite sure that Mohammed did not mean or say for his followers to hate and kill anyone who is different or has made the choice not to follow his teaching the same with Jesus...
Would you consider the following to be misguided, errant, hate-speech? Or are the points raised here of sufficient interest to warrant further research?

Islam Review - Presented by The Pen vs. the Sword Featured Articles . . . Islam: the Facade, the Facts The rosy picture some Muslims are painting about their religion, and the truth they try to hide.
Who are the Infidels

By Bassam Darwich

...

The Quran is clear in defining who is an infidel.

“They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help” (Surah 5:72).

“They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them” (Surah 5:72).

“The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!” (Surah 9:30)

As a result the Quran is clear in its position and its call to fight them.

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with w illing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Surah 9:29).

“O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed” (Surah 9:73).

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft forgiving, Most Merciful” (Surah 9:5).

...

What does ‘Mohammedans’, present to the world from teachings and moralities to sell to the society and prove the existence of a good god who deserves worship and respect.

(1) ‘Mohammedanism’ teach its followers not to trust other than ‘Mohammedans’ (even those who are considered nearest to them such as the Christians.

“O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust” (Surah 5:51).

“Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant” (Surah 5:82).

(2) ‘Mohammedanism’ lets its followers imagine that they are the best nation on earth, although they were not and still are the rear of all nations since the appearance of Islam till today).

“Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors” (Surah 3:110).

This verse plants in their hearts false superiority complex, and they live in psychotical conflict between their religious belief and the bitter reality which prove its falsehood. They then tend to hate civilized nations and they wish their destruction because they can not match them.

Muhammad planted this false superiority feeling in his followers in many of his ‘hadith’ (sayings). Once someone came to Muhammad and praised the wisdom of a Christian he met. Muhammad replied that an infidel (the Christian) has no brain. Mohammed continued, “Did you not hear the saying of Allah that, “if we were able to understand, we would not be speaking with donkeys”. It is comical that this saying came from Mohammad who pretended to be a wise person and who himself was known to talk to donkeys. (Wise) Mohammad believed that the sun rises and sets on the horns of devils, earth is flat (not a sphere), and hills are there to prevent the earth from shifting, the shooting stars in the skies are rockets which make devils flee, one wing of the fly carries poison and the other wing carries a curing drug, and lots of these stupidities.

(3) ‘Mohammedanism’ allows slavery, a human enslaves another human.

Mohammad and his wives owned slaves and traded in them. They used also to kidnap them, sell them in the markets and with the proceedings buy weapons for wars. The Quran of Mohammad prohibits a free man to let his slave inherit any of his wealth and describes he who let his slave inherit as a person who is ungrateful to Allah who gave him his wealth. Also the Quran teaches that a slave is not equal to a free man in anything !

“Allah has bestowed His gifts of sustenance more freely on some of you than on others: those more favoured are not going to throw back their gifts to those whom their right hands possess, so as to be equal in that respect. Will they then deny the favours of Allah?” (Surah 16:71)

“Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not” (Surah 16:75).

“O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman (Surah 2:178).

(4) ‘Mohammedanism’ commands its followers to make enemies from all the nations of the world.

Among all the religions of the world, Mohammedanism is the only one which commands its followers to kill anyone who does not believe in Islam, or let him pay taxes with submission. It is the only religion to ask its followers to kill and be killed until all the world believe in their Allah.

“Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do” (Surah 8:38-39).

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful” (Surah 9:5).

(5) ‘Mohammedanism’ rubs men from their freedom.

Both he who is born in ‘Mohammedanism’ and he who becomes a Muslim and changes his mind to get out of Islam should be killed. Muhammad said, “Kill him who changes his religion (Islam)”.

“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path” (Surah 33:36).

(6) ‘Mohammedanism’ prohibits criticism and permits the killing of those who oppose it.

Mohammad hated those who talked badly about him and those who accused him to be a liar. His responded by revenging from them in the most vicious way. ‘Mohammedanism’ books wrote about a woman called ‘Asmaa Bent Marawan’ who used to recite satirical poems defaming Mohammad. When Mohammad knew about that, he was looked for some one to revenge from her. A blind man called ‘Omeir Bin Odah’ volunteered. He went and slept the night in the home of this woman. During the night he came near her and found her children sleeping beside her. He also found a baby of her sucking her breast. He removed the baby away and put his sword in her chest.

In the morning he returned to Muhammad and they prayed together. After the prayer Muhammad asked him if he had killed ‘Asmaa Bent Marawan’, and Muhammad was pleased with the answer of the blind man. Muhammad told his friends, “If you want to look to a man who made Allah and his messenger victorious, then look to this blind man who was truly obedient to Allah !”

(7) ‘Mohammedanism’ teaches that adultery and stealing do not prevent the person who commit them from entering the paradise.

Mohammad said that angel Gabriel told him, “He who dies from your nation and believed in Allah, will go to paradise”. Mohammad asked, “what about he who committed adultery of stole”, Gabriel replied, “even so” [Sahih El-Boukhary chapter 4, section 883, number 1386].

(8) ‘Mohammedanism’ encourages its followers to be hypocrites if necessary.

“Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember ) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah” (Surah 3:28).

(9) The god of ‘Mohammedanism’ is enslaved to satisfy the desires of Muhammad.

By a divine command from Allah, Muhammad forced his cousin ‘Zaynab Bent Gahsh’ to marry his adopted son, and by another divine command from Allah Muhammad forced his adopted son to divorce his wife ‘Zaynab Bent Gahsh’ so that Mohammad can marry her after he lusted for her.

“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path” (Surah 33:36).

“O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful” (Surah 33:50).

Muhammad, by a divine command gave permission to himself to absolve himself from his oaths.

“O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom” (Surah 66:1-2)

(10) ‘Mohammedanism’ is hesitant, not knowing what to do.

Once it says, no compulsion in religion and once it says, fight those who do not believe in Islam.

“If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” (Surah 10:99)

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with w illing submission, and feel themselves subdued” (Surah 9:29).

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war). But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft forgiving, Most Merciful” (Surah 9:5).

(11) Allah of ‘Mohammedanism’ is devious.

“And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah” (Surah 3:54).

“They plotted and planned, but We too planned, even while they perceived it not. Then see what was the end of their plot!- this, that We destroyed them and their people, all (of them)” (Surah 27:50-51).

(12) For ‘Mohammedanism’, paradise is a brothel.

The followers of Mohammad have nothing to do in paradise except to have intercourse with virgin girls. Allah of Islam then spends all night batching those prostitutes and they become virgins again for the next use. The followers of Muhammad also have sex with boys of perpetual freshness. They drink wine and recline on comfortable sofas.

(13) Allah of ‘Mohammedanism’ hate women and consider them possessions of men.

Allah describe women in one verse as animals and for the pleasures of the world’s life. Women have to be always ready to satisfy the sexual demands of men.

“Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: Women and sons; Heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life ; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (To return to)” (Surah 3:14).

“Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe” (Surah 2:223).
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post #15 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 09:21 AM
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Why did the Muslim Middle East become so violent? Modern times would say because of this man 'Muhammad Ahmad bin as Sayyid Abd Allah' who was Osama bin ladens inspiration, but Osama didn't do much reading on Lord Kitchener or he may will have just gone back to his life of luxury and saved his people from the same fate as the whirling dervishes had dished out to them.
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 10:29 AM
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My understanding is that the Koran, unlike Bible-inerrancy kooks and their book, is considered overruled by newer statements, in other words, to just pull verses out of it is unfair to their scholarly tradition, which is that the newer entries, if they conflict with the old, overrule the old. This is why Muslims have "scholars" (imams) instead of "priests" or "ministers". It is aan imam's job to discover what the final will of God is according to the Koran and this must be done according to thier scholarly methodolgy. After coming to that understanding, I find it a waste of time to read threads like this without someone knowledgable of the Koran involved. In fact, I have to give them credit for a system like that, which I find makes much more sense then the schizophrenia of Christianity, where foaming at the mouth nutcases can scream "eye-for-an-eye" in one sentence while screaming about "The Love of Jesus" in another. Make up your fucking mind for Christ's sake.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address

Last edited by FeelTheLove; 01-17-2008 at 10:34 AM.
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
My understanding is that the Koran, unlike Bible-inerrancy kooks and their book, is considered overruled by newer statements, in other words, to just pull verses out of it is unfair to their scholarly tradition, which is that the newer entries, if they conflict with the old, overrule the old. This is why Muslims have "scholars" (imams) instead of "priests" or "ministers", whose duty it is to discover what the final will of God is according to the Koran. After coming to that understanding, I find it a waste of time to read threads like this without someone knowledgable of the Koran involved. In fact, I have to give them credit for a system like that, which I find makes much more sense then the schizophrenia of Christianity, where foaming at the mouth nutcases can scream "eye-for-an-eye" in one sentence while screaming about "The Love of Jesus" in another. Make up your fucking mind for Christ's sake.
Very true, the Koran was a live document
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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Von Vorschlag View Post
Why did the Muslim Middle East become so violent? Modern times would say because of this man 'Muhammad Ahmad bin as Sayyid Abd Allah' who was Osama bin ladens inspiration, but Osama didn't do much reading on Lord Kitchener or he may will have just gone back to his life of luxury and saved his people from the same fate as the whirling dervishes had dished out to them.
The violence in the Middle East is pretty simple to understand IMO: on their side, it is the concept of Dar al Islam, which is the principle that once a land becomes a Muslim land, it can never be anything else, and it is the duty of Muslims to take it back, hence the intractable problem of Israel, and on our side, it comes down to one word: oil and the intractable problem of our fucking greed and easy resort to mass murder that would make any fascist overlord proud.

Recall that earlier generations faced down fascism and communism not just with missiles and tanks, but with sturdy alliances and enduring convictions. They understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.

-President Barack Obama, 1st Inaugural address
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
The violence in the Middle East is pretty simple to understand IMO: on their side, it is the concept of Dar al Islam, which is the principle that once a land becomes a Muslim land, it can never be anything else, and it is the duty of Muslims to take it back, hence the intractable problem of Israel, and on our side, it comes down to one word: oil and the intractable problem of our fucking greed and easy resort to mass murder that would make any fascist overlord proud.
One problem with that, what about Spain?
But your insight is dead on, are you sure you're just a data guy?

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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FeelTheLove View Post
My understanding is that the Koran, unlike Bible-inerrancy kooks and their book, is considered overruled by newer statements, in other words, to just pull verses out of it is unfair to their scholarly tradition, which is that the newer entries, if they conflict with the old, overrule the old. This is why Muslims have "scholars" (imams) instead of "priests" or "ministers". It is aan imam's job to discover what the final will of God is according to the Koran and this must be done according to thier scholarly methodolgy. After coming to that understanding, I find it a waste of time to read threads like this without someone knowledgable of the Koran involved. In fact, I have to give them credit for a system like that, which I find makes much more sense then the schizophrenia of Christianity, where foaming at the mouth nutcases can scream "eye-for-an-eye" in one sentence while screaming about "The Love of Jesus" in another. Make up your fucking mind for Christ's sake.
That's where you see a major split: Sunna and Shia. The Sunni Muslims have a large library and tradition of commentary much as the Jews and the Torah (in sharp contrast as you indicate, from many Christians). However as I understand it, the Shiites totally reject the instructional material revered by the Sunnis. Instead, the Shiites are more like the Christian fundamentalists who think that all that is necessary for Paradise is explained in the Holy Koran and nowhere else.

I would be interested in hearing from a Sunni and a Shiite on this .... Is there a Muslim in the house?

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thats what I intend to reverse.

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