The War on Drugs [and another COUNTING Question] - Page 6 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #51 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
Your attitude exudes a not so subtle tinge of misanthropy, which unfortunately seems to be the case with a lot of cops...so yeah, you're right, business as usual
Thank you for the new word to add to my vocabulary. I had to look it up to be sure as to what it meant.

I do not have a general mistrust, hate or dislike for the human species. Quit the opposite in fact. However I get to see the "jewels" of society on a daily basis and have great disdain for "their" kind and their misanthropy.

Unlike what many liberals would like to classify myself as, I am a defender of peoples rights and freedoms.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
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post #52 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 11:55 AM
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Who is offering surrender? Legalizing some classes of drugs is not a surrender, it is a rational look at a failed approach and trying to make it more sensible. Just because you and I don't use any drugs does not mean our's is the only perspective.
Advocacy of drug legalization is surrender...I don't know how else you can put it. Legalization implies that you either ignore the very real problems that drug use creates - legal or otherwise (marijuana would be off the table for that discussion), or that you think somehow the availability of legal drugs makes all of those problems go away.

Prisons are NOT filled to capacity because of pot-heads...they are overwhelmingly filled with coke-heads, crack-heads, and meth-heads, in no small part due to federal sentencing guidelines that put first time offenders away for a couple of decades. Therefore, if you don't legalize the hardcore drugs, you're not really addressing the real problems in society. We're not having shootouts and robberies and rapes and murders and gang warfare because of marijuana. Pot is for pussies and pacifists. Let's talk about the real problems.

If a coke or heroin or crack or meth addict could be guaranteed to only ruin his/her own life, I'd say "legalize it all tomorrow". I would be ignorant for thinking this to be true.

Here's what will happen.

A) Only pot is legalized. So, nobody who sells or holds pot is a criminal anymore. Since cops only prosecute this in connection with another crime, the net impact to society will be roughly zilch. Problems solved???

B) Pot and a wide variety of other harder drugs are legalized. Billy Bob drives to (insert market name here), and decides to pick up (insert hallucinogen here) with a bag of chips. After the kid is asleep, he tries said drug for the first time. In a delusional fit, he thinks his sleeping kid is frozen, and puts it in the oven cooking it to death. The family sues the market, as well as the state/federal government, for facilitating the death of this innocent child because they were too fucking stupid and weak to figure out a REAL solution to a REAL problem; and they win the biggest settlement in the history of the nation. We ALL get to pay for that with our hard earned tax dollars.

Problem solved?!? Give me a break already....

Last edited by Qubes; 01-17-2008 at 12:06 PM.
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post #53 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:05 PM
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So was selling liquor in the 30s.

Your argument suggests that because it is illegal now we should not reconsider whether that is the appropriate course of action. That is the discussion.
Well, in fairness, our track record as a nation should serve as a warning here. States have legalized gambling, and we have more gambling-related social issues now than ever. De-regulation has worked swimmingly to ensure laws we passed (reactively mind you) to keep corporations in check serve as permanent reminders that they should behave and not bend the rules.

I'm trying to remember any issue on which we've waffled as a nation, where the less restrictive of any two options has left a situation better than we found it...but I'm a young guy.
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post #54 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:22 PM
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Advocacy of drug legalization is surrender...I don't know how else you can put it. Legalization implies that you either ignore the very real problems that drug use creates - legal or otherwise (marijuana would be off the table for that discussion), or that you think somehow the availability of legal drugs makes all of those problems go away.

Prisons are NOT filled to capacity because of pot-heads...they are overwhelmingly filled with coke-heads, crack-heads, and meth-heads, in no small part due to federal sentencing guidelines that put first time offenders away for a couple of decades. Therefore, if you don't legalize the hardcore drugs, you're not really addressing the real problems in society. We're not having shootouts and robberies and rapes and murders and gang warfare because of marijuana. Pot is for pussies and pacifists. Let's talk about the real problems.

If a coke or heroin or crack or meth addict could be guaranteed to only ruin his/her own life, I'd say "legalize it all tomorrow". I would be ignorant for thinking this to be true.

Here's what will happen.

A) Only pot is legalized. So, nobody who sells or holds pot is a criminal anymore. Since cops only prosecute this in connection with another crime, the net impact to society will be roughly zilch. Problems solved???

B) Pot and a wide variety of other harder drugs are legalized. Billy Bob drives to (insert market name here), and decides to pick up (insert hallucinogen here) with a bag of chips. After the kid is asleep, he tries said drug for the first time. In a delusional fit, he thinks his sleeping kid is frozen, and puts it in the oven cooking it to death. The family sues the market, as well as the state/federal government, for facilitating the death of this innocent child because they were too fucking stupid and weak to figure out a REAL solution to a REAL problem; and they win the biggest settlement in the history of the nation. We ALL get to pay for that with our hard earned tax dollars.

Problem solved?!? Give me a break already....
WOW! I can see why we're never gonna agree on this--you've clearly seen Reefer Madness one too many times
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post #55 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:25 PM
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^ Never saw it; I did watch the news growing up in Northern California and in St. Louis. Glad to hear that Washington state is devoid of drug-related issues. Seriously.
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post #56 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:32 PM
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Since Z is unfamiliar with coke & crack, here's a primer. Others may find it of interest as well.

InfoFacts - Crack and Cocaine
Cocaine is a powerfully addictive stimulant drug. The powdered, hydrochloride salt form of cocaine can be snorted or dissolved in water and injected. Crack is cocaine that has not been neutralized by an acid to make the hydrochloride salt. This form of cocaine comes in a rock crystal that can be heated and its vapors smoked. The term "crack" refers to the crackling sound heard when it is heated.*

Regardless of how cocaine is used or how frequently, a user can experience acute cardiovascular or cerebrovascular emergencies, such as a heart attack or stroke, which could result in sudden death. Cocaine-related deaths are often a result of cardiac arrest or seizure followed by respiratory arrest.
Health Hazards
Cocaine is a strong central nervous system stimulant that interferes with the reabsorption process of dopamine, a chemical messenger associated with pleasure and movement. The buildup of dopamine causes continuous stimulation of receiving neurons, which is associated with the euphoria commonly reported by cocaine abusers.

Physical effects of cocaine use include constricted blood vessels, dilated pupils, and increased temperature, heart rate, and blood pressure. The duration of cocaine's immediate euphoric effects, which include hyperstimulation, reduced fatigue, and mental alertness, depends on the route of administration. The faster the absorption, the more intense the high. On the other hand, the faster the absorption, the shorter the duration of action. The high from snorting may last 15 to 30 minutes, while that from smoking may last 5 to 10 minutes. Increased use can reduce the period of time a user feels high and increases the risk of addiction.

Some users of cocaine report feelings of restlessness, irritability, and anxiety. A tolerance to the "high" may develop—many addicts report that they seek but fail to achieve as much pleasure as they did from their first exposure. Some users will increase their doses to intensify and prolong the euphoric effects. While tolerance to the high can occur, users can also become more sensitive to cocaine's anesthetic and convulsant effects without increasing the dose taken. This increased sensitivity may explain some deaths occurring after apparently low doses of cocaine.

Use of cocaine in a binge, during which the drug is taken repeatedly and at increasingly high doses, may lead to a state of increasing irritability, restlessness, and paranoia. This can result in a period of full-blown paranoid psychosis, in which the user loses touch with reality and experiences auditory hallucinations.

Other complications associated with cocaine use include disturbances in heart rhythm and heart attacks, chest pain and respiratory failure, strokes, seizures and headaches, and gastrointestinal complications such as abdominal pain and nausea. Because cocaine has a tendency to decrease appetite, many chronic users can become malnourished.

Different means of taking cocaine can produce different adverse effects. Regularly snorting cocaine, for example, can lead to loss of the sense of smell, nosebleeds, problems with swallowing, hoarseness, and a chronically runny nose. Ingesting cocaine can cause severe bowel gangrene due to reduced blood flow. People who inject cocaine can experience severe allergic reactions and, as with all injecting drug users, are at increased risk for contracting HIV and other blood-borne diseases.

Added Danger: Cocaethylene
When people mix cocaine and alcohol consumption, they are compounding the danger each drug poses and unknowingly forming a complex chemical experiment within their bodies. NIDA-funded researchers have found that the human liver combines cocaine and alcohol and manufactures a third substance, cocaethylene, that intensifies cocaine's euphoric effects, while potentially increasing the risk of sudden death.
Combine "powerfully addictive" and the descriptions of binge-induced hallucinations, and you're not far away from parents killing their children or vice-versa. You can do the Google work yourself, but 175,000 articles popped up when I entered "crack mom kills child". Here's some of the first page highlights.

Son Kills Mother Over Crack Money, Police Say - New York Times

Could Smoking Moms Be Jailed For Homicide? [05/29/01]

Crack Babies: The Worst Threat is Mom Herself

Crack, a Rift in Society - washingtonpost.com

Lycaeum > Leda > Crack Babies Excerpt from "Smoke and Mirrors"

I'm probably just being thick, but I still can't find the connection between legalizing these drugs and curing these problems.
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post #57 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:34 PM
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^ Never saw it; I did watch the news growing up in Northern California and in St. Louis. Glad to hear that Washington state is devoid of drug-related issues. Seriously.
I've grown up around drugs and drug culture. Washington is one of the top growing states for bud--it's our largest grossing agricultural crop. We're also a major distribution hub for heroin and coke. My best friend in high school ended up hooked on heroin and eventually became a dealer to support his habit. He's more than likely the source of Kurt Cobain's last fix. I think I have a clear-eyed assessment of the problems we're facing.
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post #58 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:36 PM
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^ What problems? Aside from a suicidal grunge rocker, sounds like everyone's keeping their joneses in check and business is good.
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post #59 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:37 PM
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Believe me, I'm more than familiar with coke. I like it. I'd still rather smoke weed or drink scotch...or do all of the above and fuck one of my hot lady friends.
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post #60 of 63 (permalink) Old 01-17-2008, 12:40 PM
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^ What problems? Aside from a suicidal grunge rocker, sounds like everyone's keeping their joneses in check and business is good.
Again, you're arguing with yourself. I've asserted that there are problems associated with drugs (especially legal drugs like alcohol), but I believe our current approach exacerbates those problems and is entirely counter-productive.
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