Should school teachers be paid like entertainers? - Page 5 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 09:10 PM
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I think they should be first hired based on experience in the subject field they are supposed to teach. Let me give you an example: I could not get a job as a high school teacher in Baltimore city to teach math, computers or physics because I did not have an ED degree.
I agree! But as a university professor emeritus who taught teachers who received ED and Ph.D. degrees I can say w/ certainty that those degrees are not necessary for them to perform w/ distinction. In fact, they sometimes get in the way. It is absolutely true that they need to know the subject-matter extremely well, but having a university degree is no guarantee that they do. In fact, I have known many extraordinary teachers who did not even have a BA degree.

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post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 09:17 PM
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Capacity is finite and quantitative, how do you measure quality and plug it into a model?
If the quality of teachers is based on the achievement of their students, a good teacher can replace a bad one, if the union and tenure are excluded from the formula, and there is no change in capacity. Good replaces bad in a system like that. No additional capacity is required. That is why I said that redundancy and inefficiencies are not an issue in a system that rewards quality teaching and eliminates bad teachers.

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post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 09:26 PM
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No I should have been more clear about capacity: Capacity is the ability to manage the number of students in a classroom.
If you start closing the "bad schools" where do you place the displaced students? When you have a fixed set of schools and classrooms you will end up with increase in class sizes at the good schools where you would hinder their performance. So you try to solve one problem while creating another one. I am glad that you don't manage any school system; did you say you taught people that ended up becoming teachers? Are they running Baltimore schools? because it sounds like it.
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post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 09:51 PM
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No I should have been more clear about capacity: Capacity is the ability to manage the number of students in a classroom.
If you start closing the "bad schools" where do you place the displaced students? When you have a fixed set of schools and classrooms you will end up with increase in class sizes at the good schools where you would hinder their performance. So you try to solve one problem while creating another one. I am glad that you don't manage any school system; did you say you taught people that ended up becoming teachers? Are they running Baltimore schools? because it sounds like it.
High quality charter schools are popping up everywhere and will easily replace the failed ones when that is necessary.

I trained teachers and administrators now in the best schools in some of the worst systems in the U.S. including the South Bronx in NYC; Compton, CA; Trenton, NJ; the Hopi Indian Reservation in AZ; the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation in MT; Philadelphia, PA; and in dozens of other school systems across the country.

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post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 11:40 PM
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Education should be free. Some European Countries see it as an investment in their future, to be recouped by a higher earning and higher tax paying population.
Anything else perpetuates a caste like system.
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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-16-2008, 05:17 AM
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Education should be free. Some European Countries see it as an investment in their future, to be recouped by a higher earning and higher tax paying population.
Anything else perpetuates a caste like system.
Europe is a great place to live if you want to be a European.

B

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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-16-2008, 05:51 AM
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Europe is a great place to live if you want to be a European.

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I must have misunderstood. I thought this thread was about US teachers, and the American educational system.
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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-16-2008, 11:01 AM
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Education should be free. Some European Countries see it as an investment in their future, to be recouped by a higher earning and higher tax paying population.
Anything else perpetuates a caste like system.
Ostensibly, K-12 public education is free in the U.S. It is all tax-supported just like the European countries. Even higher ed in the U.S. is substantially government supported. I think it is the quality of education that matters, which is why so many people pay a substantial premium to send their kids to private schools at all levels. The difference between U.S. and European education systems is that here K-12 parents and students have no choice of where they go to school. No matter how good or bad we are assigned a school based primarily on geographical location. In Europe they can usually select the school based on their criteria rather than their location. If parents here had a choice of where their kids went to school, based on the quality of the school, very few kids would go where "the system" assigns them to go.

In higher ed here there is a system of choice in place and as a result of the competition among schools our colleges and universities are the envy of the world. Students from across the globe compete daily to enter U.S. schools of higher education. If only we could learn from that model maybe our K-12 schools would not be ranked at or near the bottom in international measures of quality.

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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-16-2008, 12:57 PM
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In higher ed here there is a system of choice in place and as a result of the competition among schools our colleges and universities are the envy of the world. Students from across the globe compete daily to enter U.S. schools of higher education. If only we could learn from that model maybe our K-12 schools would not be ranked at or near the bottom in international measures of quality.
In higher education facilities you have a tremendous contribution by corporations, alumni and of course the tax funded/tuition funded co-elements to drive the system. And there is a gross disparity between schools on those funding elements. Imagine the funding disparity as you move that model to a K-12 system to Hurricane W.Va or Kenvir, KY or Monticello, UT where the poverty rates are 25%+ and there is no tax base or alumni base or Corporate base to fund this market driven education system of which you speak.

Should those kids just go suck eggs?

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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-16-2008, 01:58 PM
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In higher education facilities you have a tremendous contribution by corporations, alumni and of course the tax funded/tuition funded co-elements to drive the system. And there is a gross disparity between schools on those funding elements. Imagine the funding disparity as you move that model to a K-12 system to Hurricane W.Va or Kenvir, KY or Monticello, UT where the poverty rates are 25%+ and there is no tax base or alumni base or Corporate base to fund this market driven education system of which you speak.

Should those kids just go suck eggs?
Those are exactly the same kids I've spent much of my professional life trying to help. And though I agree w/ you in the main, you might be surprised how much added support (financial and volunteer) a really high quality K-12 school can garner from corporations and alumni alike. The problem is, most people have never seen such a school, and, therefore, do not appreciate what a difference a high-power school can make in a poor or rich kids life when everything is working. There is no perfect system--government-controlled or market-driven--but I can tell you from experience that we can do a lot better, if we could just move some of the power and control down to the level of parents--and students themselves in the higher grades.

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