Should school teachers be paid like entertainers? - Page 3 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 04:00 PM
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Most parents or parent [which is also part of the problem] use the school as a day care center.
Why blame the parent(s) when you can blame the system?

As far as wage, don't forget to add the cost of health insurance to it. As in FREE. Unions like to fight for that kind of stuff.

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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 04:32 PM
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^ I still contend that while your perceptions aren't without validity, they are regional in nature. My issue with this is that people want to treat localized pain with a general, Federally administered anesthetic. That's a poor approach, because it's very expensive, and it doesn't fix anything.

The states should be responsible for fixing these issues. If people care enough to have ignorant opinions about how much teachers are paid or how long they work, they can pay attention to the goings-on of the Boards of Education and make sure they don't turn into assholes when it's time to take care of their schools.
It's not regional, and it is not just a local problem that does not affect everyone. While we want to focus our attention on providing education FOR THE CHILDREN, we, as a country have to also look at those same children as a resource for our future. If some states are providing excellent education that is as it should be and will provide those children with a leg up in the future BUT they are not able to carry the weight of this entire country if other states are not willing or able to have similar resources focused from the local level.

Our manufacturing base and IT base and professional base has to draw from the entire population of graduates and if they are to be the workers that drive this country to compete within a global market ALL the children have to have an accelerated, topnotch education, not just counties or states that are fortunate enough to have a tax base that can afford to pay it. This country will depend, as we move further into a global economy on the cooperation of everyone to make sure that workers are competitive with those from India, China, Japan, Brazil and other countries that, right now are ripping us a new one with their progressive education systems.

Check with your worldwide peers and ask how many kids in India under 12 are FLUENTLY multilingual, same in China, same in Japan, Russia, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Mexico. Now poll your American peers.

At Thanksgiving dinner in 2006 we had 36 people here. We invited many of the contractors who were stuck in town, not knowing anyone or the customs. We had Chinese, Indian, Italian, German, Mexican and of course American. My two nephews and niece, sis-law [MD], her husband [MD] and I were the only ones that spoke only English. While I know bits and pieces of five languages, I am fluent in none. Everyone else in the room spoke English, including the young kids.

We have to compete with that. We cannot afford to have 2200 local school boards, 50 State Boards of Education, 25 Christian Education Councils, The Catholic Church and Home School helicopter parents all making disparate decisions on this serious of a national resource.

McBear,
Kentucky

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Last edited by mcbear; 01-15-2008 at 04:34 PM.
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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 04:41 PM
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Market price.
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What they are willing to work for, just like real people.
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So if they join in collective bargaining through the NEA to achieve the monetary and benefit goals what they are willing to work for that is OK?
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Collective bargaining (nowadays) is for wimps and pussies. Don't like your pay? Go do something else or STFU.

B
Make up your mind. You declared Market Price. So the teachers decide they want market price and go into collective bargaining to get it. Yet now you say that is for wimps and pussies.

Obviously if they ask for too much the market can try to find others that will work for less. Simple supply and demand.

Sorry, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

McBear,
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 04:47 PM
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Most parents or parent [which is also part of the problem] use the school as a day care center.
Why blame the parent(s) when you can blame the system?

As far as wage, don't forget to add the cost of health insurance to it. As in FREE. Unions like to fight for that kind of stuff.
Health might be free in some locations but that certainly is not a common benefit. Teachers in Kentucky, as an example pay about $500 monthly for health insurance.

McBear,
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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 04:58 PM
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t's not regional, and it is not just a local problem that does not affect everyone. While we want to focus our attention on providing education FOR THE CHILDREN, we, as a country have to also look at those same children as a resource for our future. If some states are providing excellent education that is as it should be and will provide those children with a leg up in the future BUT they are not able to carry the weight of this entire country if other states are not willing or able to have similar resources focused from the local level.

Our manufacturing base and IT base and professional base has to draw from the entire population of graduates and if they are to be the workers that drive this country to compete within a global market ALL the children have to have an accelerated, topnotch education, not just counties or states that are fortunate enough to have a tax base that can afford to pay it. This country will depend, as we move further into a global economy on the cooperation of everyone to make sure that workers are competitive with those from India, China, Japan, Brazil and other countries that, right now are ripping us a new one with their progressive education systems.

Check with your worldwide peers and ask how many kids in India under 12 are FLUENTLY multilingual, same in China, same in Japan, Russia, Italy, Germany, Brazil, Mexico. Now poll your American peers.

At Thanksgiving dinner in 2006 we had 36 people here. We invited many of the contractors who were stuck in town, not knowing anyone or the customs. We had Chinese, Indian, Italian, German, Mexican and of course American. My two nephews and niece, sis-law [MD], her husband [MD] and I were the only ones that spoke only English. While I know bits and pieces of five languages, I am fluent in none. Everyone else in the room spoke English, including the young kids.

We have to compete with that. We cannot afford to have 2200 local school boards, 50 State Boards of Education, 25 Christian Education Councils, The Catholic Church and Home School helicopter parents all making disparate decisions on this serious of a national resource.


Much if not all of what you said is true, but you're comparing apples to oranges on so many fronts that our arguments don't align closely enough to be considered opposite one another.

There is *no fucking way* the federal government can fix this problem without instituting a branch larger than DHS, or shattering the spirits of any child who cannot keep up at the fastest pace.

Not everything is sunshine and roses in any of the nations you mentioned with "progressive" education systems, and I'd argue that none of us here know enough about them to consider them a viable model for our own.

The world needs ditch diggers, too. It's good that there are under-performers; not everyone can be an internet mogul. I have no problem with that whatsoever, and think it's unrealistic to assume every student in elementary school will get top marks and go on to reach the pinnacle of their chosen professions. It's plenty for some people to be able to simply function in society (simple math, simple reading, hold down a simple job) in order to find happiness.

In my experience, and you can discount it all you want with stories of inner city nightmares, the public education systems of this country give students what they put in. Students who try hard and are conscientious will do very well; students who are disinterested and apathetic will not. There are simply no cures for this outside of the home, and as sad as that fact is, it's the truth.
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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 06:45 PM
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Make up your mind. You declared Market Price. So the teachers decide they want market price and go into collective bargaining to get it. Yet now you say that is for wimps and pussies.

Obviously if they ask for too much the market can try to find others that will work for less. Simple supply and demand.

Sorry, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Wrong again.

Each individual should act as a free agent.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 06:46 PM
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^There is no free will. You have to pay for that too.
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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Multipurpose View Post
Most parents or parent [which is also part of the problem] use the school as a day care center.
Why blame the parent(s) when you can blame the system?

As far as wage, don't forget to add the cost of health insurance to it. As in FREE. Unions like to fight for that kind of stuff.
I paid over $500 for health insurance to cover my family on a salary of $24K but fortunately I did not have to baby sit students since this was college. I was tempted though to ask them for loans since they all seem to be rich and were able to afford a yearly tuition of $40k while the parking lot is full of BMWs Benzes and a lot of souped up ricers. The average salary for a graduating student out off my institution for undergraduates was $64.7K with a 98% placement according to the placement office. Graduate students who were already working had average salaries of $80K but upon graduation those numbers edged or surpassed the six figures.
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 06:54 PM
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Nothing is free.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 01-15-2008, 06:55 PM
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Much if not all of what you said is true, but you're comparing apples to oranges on so many fronts that our arguments don't align closely enough to be considered opposite one another.

There is *no fucking way* the federal government can fix this problem without instituting a branch larger than DHS, or shattering the spirits of any child who cannot keep up at the fastest pace.

Not everything is sunshine and roses in any of the nations you mentioned with "progressive" education systems, and I'd argue that none of us here know enough about them to consider them a viable model for our own.

The world needs ditch diggers, too. It's good that there are under-performers; not everyone can be an internet mogul. I have no problem with that whatsoever, and think it's unrealistic to assume every student in elementary school will get top marks and go on to reach the pinnacle of their chosen professions. It's plenty for some people to be able to simply function in society (simple math, simple reading, hold down a simple job) in order to find happiness.

In my experience, and you can discount it all you want with stories of inner city nightmares, the public education systems of this country give students what they put in. Students who try hard and are conscientious will do very well; students who are disinterested and apathetic will not. There are simply no cures for this outside of the home, and as sad as that fact is, it's the truth.
I agree with much of that [other than the one contradiction you wandering in the middle].

I am not sure what "problem" you say can't be fixed without a "bigger than DHS". We already have the Department of Education. I think they issue is whether to keep a fairly steady level of curriculum, standards and guidance [and funding for areas that lack the tax base to provide their own standards of excellence] on a National level, use that to try and improve the level at which our kids achieve on the international level [and there IS much known about most of the other educational systems throughout the world, including comparative test scores]. So I see the issue as more improving on the steady state.

What I don't want to see is a move to 2200 separate curricula, with private school, religious school and home school input into the process as the outcome will be fractured beyond repair. Some school systems will achieve, others will be teaching dinosaurs and children played on the beach at Daytona. Science and Math will be minimized in some systems because they can't afford the teachers and or the kids find it too hard and the parents don't think its that important anyway [who needs algebra after school?]

We, as a country are going to be fighting a trade war with the rest of the world and we are not going to have the smartest kids on our side as our workers. That means we will lose. The only way to insure we maintain parity is to improve the system. AS YOU SAY, it starts at home but the school system has to drive it, and drive it hard. There are going to be kids who get their spirit shattered if they don't keep up. They will get it better the next year they take the class.

Yes the world needs ditch diggers and laborers and not all "smart workers" but that should be decided by the workers absolute abilities, not the local tax base's ability to provide an education for the kids.

McBear,
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