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post #21 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 07:57 PM
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We don't know the rules. We know that he will change the rules after his contract is accepted.
A contract? Shit, sue the geezer.

Or heck, meet his latest criteria and see what he does. Shouldn't be too hard.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #22 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:01 PM
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Well that was kinda my original point. Kerry's gonna end up in court with Pickens, and you know what they say about mud-wrestling with a pig. (You can decide which one's the pig.)

Even if Kerry were foolish enough to do whatever Pickens demands, who's to say Pickens won't add a third demand? Why shouldn't he, if the first two worked out so well?

I say send them to the American Arbitration Assn! BUT that second million is extraneous to the deal.
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post #23 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:05 PM
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If the Swift Boat allegations are fabrications then here's a way for an enterprising individual to get his retirement nest egg all at once.
Not possible because everything in the Swiftboat ads were innuendo and hearsay. Most, if not all of the stuff would not be possible to prove [with Pickins' criteria] one way or the other 40 years after the fact.

I can look back now at events that occurred at about the same time [a bit later] and I bet if you queried each of the 12 of us [or those still alive] on a specific mission you would get at least half a dozen nuanced answers.

Now, if you got a collective of us together and instilled a political motivation, wonder what the outcome would be?

Right now I have a hard time remembering some of the faces that I would have sworn that I would have never forgotten, I tangle that pilot's name with another or all the detailis of the mission where we had two BUFFs fall out of the sky at the same time - other than we had way too much attention showered upon us that day-night-day.

How guys who were on other boats, on some missions, not in the same chain suddenly remember stuff about a nondescript young officer is beyond me. They had way too much other stuff to keep their minds occupied rather than what John Kerry was, or was not doing.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
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post #24 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:07 PM
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Well that was kinda my original point. Kerry's gonna end up in court with Pickens, and you know what they say about mud-wrestling with a pig. (You can decide which one's the pig.)

Even if Kerry were foolish enough to do whatever Pickens demands, who's to say Pickens won't add a third demand? Why shouldn't he, if the first two worked out so well?

I say send them to the American Arbitration Assn! BUT that second million is extraneous to the deal.
The only thing that can be called a change is Picken's explaining what he would consider proof, and those are objective documents so that shouldn't be hard. And you know, a million bucks is a million bucks, and especially sweet if it proves with finality that the Swift Boat sailor's allegations are lies.

By the way, great analogy, but which one is the pig?

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #25 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:15 PM
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How do you figure the second million is not a change? It was never even mentioned until after Kerry accepted the "deal".

It was not a wager, it was a reward.

If I bring your lost dog back to you, to collect your $50 reward, I don't have to pay you $50 just because it turns out it's not your dog. Or to extend that analogy a bit, I don't have to pay you $50 just because you decided you don't like your dog so much anymore
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post #26 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:20 PM
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To Marsden's point, this story is flimsier than wet rice paper. It's like calling Robert Rubin a racist, just because white supremacists used money with his name on it. After all, he'd had that post for a long time, how could he NOT KNOW?!?
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post #27 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:21 PM
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Not possible because everything in the Swiftboat ads were innuendo and hearsay. Most, if not all of the stuff would not be possible to prove [with Pickins' criteria] one way or the other 40 years after the fact.

I can look back now at events that occurred at about the same time [a bit later] and I bet if you queried each of the 12 of us [or those still alive] on a specific mission you would get at least half a dozen nuanced answers.

Now, if you got a collective of us together and instilled a political motivation, wonder what the outcome would be?

Right now I have a hard time remembering some of the faces that I would have sworn that I would have never forgotten, I tangle that pilot's name with another or all the detailis of the mission where we had two BUFFs fall out of the sky at the same time - other than we had way too much attention showered upon us that day-night-day.

How guys who were on other boats, on some missions, not in the same chain suddenly remember stuff about a nondescript young officer is beyond me. They had way too much other stuff to keep their minds occupied rather than what John Kerry was, or was not doing.
Talk about fading memories, I thought the swifties had several specific allegations, but I'll be damned if I remember for certain nor do I care enough to search. However, as a lawyer Kerry knows something about proofs and he believes that allegations can be refuted else he would never have accepted the challenge.

According to Pickens, it can all be put to rest by releasing his complete service records, journals, and videos. If it were me, I'd have no problem with any of that. Including that little ol' Article 15 thingie that would make me blush today!

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #28 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:23 PM
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The only thing that can be called a change is Picken's explaining what he would consider proof, and those are objective documents so that shouldn't be hard. And you know, a million bucks is a million bucks, and especially sweet if it proves with finality that the Swift Boat sailor's allegations are lies.
Objective Documents???

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Originally Posted by the wiki thingie
The SBVT statements were accompanied by sworn affidavits, although one affiant, Al French, later admitted he had no firsthand knowledge of what he had sworn to.[48]

The first SBVT ad was contradicted by the statements of several other veterans who observed the incidents, by the Navy's official records, and, in some instances, by the contemporaneous statements of SBVT members themselves.
Swift Vets and POWs for Truth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a real good reason Swiftboating has become synonymous with deceptive smear campaigns. Pickens made his little offer because he knows you can't ever "disprove" such subjective smears.

I could offer a million dollars today for anyone to prove or disprove that I cried On April 11, 1984. And I would need proof, one way or the other. It can't be proved, either way.

McBear,
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Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.

Last edited by mcbear; 01-12-2008 at 08:27 PM. Reason: This time with LInkie Goodness
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post #29 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:28 PM
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Objective Documents???



There is a real good reason Swiftboating has become synonymous with deceptive smear campaigns. Pickens made his little offer because he knows you can't ever "disprove" such subjective smears.

I could offer a million dollars today for anyone to prove or disprove that I cried on pril 11, 1984. And I would need proof, one way or the other. It can't be proved, either way.
I think you misunderstood me. T. Boone Pickens asked for certain documents, including Kerrys complete service records. Those are what I meant by "objective documents." I certainly make no assertion concerning the swifties. I wasn't there, though I almost was. When I was in BP&E school they lined us up and counted down the row for people to go to engineman school to serve on PBR's and monitors in the Mekong. Missed me.

B

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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post #30 of 42 (permalink) Old 01-12-2008, 08:37 PM
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Crap, against my instincts, I went to a swift boat organization site (almost no traffic there by the dates of postings I saw) and read their FAQ.

Swift Vets and POWs for Truth - Service to Country

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and thatís what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
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