New CAFE Standards Signed into Law - Page 4 - Mercedes-Benz Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 01:38 AM
slightly creased
 
420 SE's Avatar
 
Date registered: Sep 2005
Vehicle: 1988 420 SE; 2015 ML 400
Location: Gold Coast, QLD, AUS & Doha, Qatar
Posts: 16,177
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Damn.... and here was me hoping, next time I manage to get through the TSA (as a 'friend' of the US) I could look forward to decent espresso........


Oh well, just shit coffee in the US again......

Ross

OzBenz

beware of fundamentalists

420 SE is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 04:32 AM
~BANNED~
 
Zedd's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2004
Vehicle: 82 300D VNT, 80 240D 3.0T
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,926
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Whats worse is that the Governator is crying like a little baby that they won't let him set HIGHER standards. He wants to raise fuel efficiency standards in the state to 43.7MPG for passenger cars, some SUVs and trucks, while larger vehicles would need to reach 26.9mpg by that year.

Thats what happens when you let ignorant politicians play engineer. They don't realize that IC engines aren't physically capable of the efficiency required to meet those standards. Unless somebody pulls a miracle solution out of their ass that can violate the laws of physics and increase thermal efficiency to about 200%, there is no possible way to meet those goals in America. Americans want a V6/V8 powered sedan or V8 powered Pickup/SUV that can do 0-60 in 6 seconds, not a 660cc Kei car.
Zedd is offline  
post #33 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 06:55 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
Whats worse is that the Governator is crying like a little baby that they won't let him set HIGHER standards. He wants to raise fuel efficiency standards in the state to 43.7MPG for passenger cars, some SUVs and trucks, while larger vehicles would need to reach 26.9mpg by that year.

Thats what happens when you let ignorant politicians play engineer. They don't realize that IC engines aren't physically capable of the efficiency required to meet those standards. Unless somebody pulls a miracle solution out of their ass that can violate the laws of physics and increase thermal efficiency to about 200%, there is no possible way to meet those goals in America. Americans want a V6/V8 powered sedan or V8 powered Pickup/SUV that can do 0-60 in 6 seconds, not a 660cc Kei car.
Congress should pass a law revoking the Laws of Thermodynamics. After that, no problem.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
Botnst is offline  
post #34 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 07:56 AM
Surely A Large Human
 
Qubes's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2006
Vehicle: '08 C219
Location: Between Earth and Mars
Posts: 34,252
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
Thats what happens when you let ignorant politicians play engineer. They don't realize that IC engines aren't physically capable of the efficiency required to meet those standards. Unless somebody pulls a miracle solution out of their ass that can violate the laws of physics and increase thermal efficiency to about 200%, there is no possible way to meet those goals in America. Americans want a V6/V8 powered sedan or V8 powered Pickup/SUV that can do 0-60 in 6 seconds, not a 660cc Kei car.
Motorhead Messiah - Fuel Efficient Cars - Biodiesel - Hybrids

You were saying?
"This is more than a mere American Chopper--style makeover. Goodwin's experiments point to a radically cleaner and cheaper future for the American car. The numbers are simple: With a $5,000 bolt-on kit he co-engineered--the poor man's version of a Goodwin conversion--he can immediately transform any diesel vehicle to burn 50% less fuel and produce 80% fewer emissions. On a full-size gas-guzzler, he figures the kit earns its money back in about a year--or, on a regular car, two--while hitting an emissions target from the outset that's more stringent than any regulation we're likely to see in our lifetime. "Johnathan's in a league of his own," says Martin Tobias, CEO of Imperium Renewables, the nation's largest producer of biodiesel. "Nobody out there is doing experiments like he is."

Nobody--particularly not Detroit. Indeed, Goodwin is doing precisely what the big American automakers have always insisted is impossible. They have long argued that fuel-efficient and alternative-fuel cars are a hard sell because they're too cramped and meek for our market. They've lobbied aggressively against raising fuel-efficiency and emissions standards, insisting that either would doom the domestic industry. Yet the truth is that Detroit is now getting squeezed from all sides. This fall, labor unrest is brewing, and after decades of inertia on fuel-economy standards, Congress is jockeying to boost the target for cars to 35 mpg, a 10 mpg jump (which is either ridiculously large or ridiculously small, depending on whom you ask). More than a dozen states are enacting laws requiring steep reductions in greenhouse-gas emissions. Meanwhile, gas prices have hovered around $3 per gallon for more than a year. And European and Japanese carmakers are flooding the market with diesel and hybrid machines that get up to 40% better mileage than the best American cars; some, such as Mercedes's new BlueTec diesel sedans, deliver that kind of efficiency and more horsepower."

...

While researching alternative fuels, he learned about the work of Uli Kruger, a German who has spent decades in Australia exploring techniques for blending fuels that normally don't mix. One of Kruger's systems induces hydrogen into the air intake of a diesel engine, producing a cascade of emissions-reducing and mileage-boosting effects. The hydrogen, ignited by the diesel combustion, burns extremely clean, producing only water as a by-product. It also displaces up to 50% of the diesel needed to fuel the car, effectively doubling the diesel's mileage and cutting emissions by at least half. Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer nitrogen-oxide emissions.

"You can feed it hydrogen, diesel, biodiesel, corn oil--pretty much anything but water."
"It's really a fantastic chain reaction, all these good things happening at once," Kruger tells me. He has also successfully introduced natural gas--a ubiquitous and generally cheap fuel--into a diesel-burning engine, which likewise doubles the mileage while slashing emissions. In another system, he uses heat from the diesel engine to vaporize ethanol to the point where it can be injected into the diesel combustion chambers as a booster, with similar emissions-cutting effects.

Goodwin began building on Kruger's model. In 2005, he set to work adapting his own H1 Hummer to burn a combination of hydrogen and biodiesel. He installed a Duramax in the Hummer and plopped a carbon-fiber tank of supercompressed hydrogen into the bed. The results were impressive: A single tank of hydrogen lasted for 700 miles and cut the diesel consumption in half. It also doubled the horsepower. "It reduces your carbon footprint by a huge, huge amount, but you still get all the power of the Duramax," he says, slapping the H1 on the quarter panel. "And you can feed it hydrogen, diesel, biodiesel, corn oil--pretty much anything but water."

...

For his part, Goodwin argues he's merely "a problem solver. Most people try to make things more complicated than they are." He speaks of the major carmakers with a sort of mild disdain: If he can piece together cleaner vehicles out of existing GM parts and a bit of hot-rod elbow grease, why can't they bake that kind of ingenuity into their production lines? Prod him enough on the subject and his mellowness peels away, revealing a guy fired by an almost manic frustration. "Everybody should be driving a plug-in vehicle right now," he complains, in one of his laconic engineering lectures, as we wander through the blistering Kansas heat to a nearby Mexican restaurant. "I can go next door to Ace Hardware and buy a DC electric motor, go out to my four-wheel-drive truck, remove the transmission and engine, bolt the electric motor onto the back of the transfer case, put a series of lead-acid batteries up to 240 volts in the back of the bed, and we're good to go. I guarantee you I could drive all around town and do whatever I need, go home at night, and hook up a couple of battery chargers, plug one into an outlet, and be good to go the next day.

"Detroit could do all this stuff overnight if it wanted to," he adds.
Qubes is offline  
post #35 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 09:00 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
BadBenz94's Avatar
 
Date registered: Feb 2003
Vehicle: 2001 Jaguar XJR, 1994 E320(sold)
Location: Kankakee,IL
Posts: 1,849
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Interesting, but if you remember Chrysler built a few turbine cars and leased them for a year. Dont know what kind of MPGs they got, but for whatever reason it was scrapped.

Im always suspicious of the 100mpg carburator that was "squashed" by the big three.

Lets think about it. If the Industry can come up with an ultra efficient engine, motor or combination thereof and have huge advatages over the other players, then why would they hold back?

If I or any industry could capitilize on something so grand, they would gain marketshare hand over fist and the current stock owners would benefit grandly.

So the question I pose to you: Why has it not happend?

My Car WOO HOO...... Now SOLD
New car.... 2001 Jaguar XJR!!!!

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
BadBenz94 is offline  
post #36 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 09:10 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
Date registered: Sep 2004
Vehicle: 95 E300
Location: Inside my head
Posts: 36,850
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBenz94 View Post
Interesting, but if you remember Chrysler built a few turbine cars and leased them for a year. Dont know what kind of MPGs they got, but for whatever reason it was scrapped.

Im always suspicious of the 100mpg carburator that was "squashed" by the big three.

Lets think about it. If the Industry can come up with an ultra efficient engine, motor or combination thereof and have huge advatages over the other players, then why would they hold back?

If I or any industry could capitilize on something so grand, they would gain marketshare hand over fist and the current stock owners would benefit grandly.

So the question I pose to you: Why has it not happend?
The Neocons and Jews got together with Big Oil to suppress the carburetor to increase the national debt which is being bought-up by the Iluminati who own Shell.

It's easy once you get the rhythm.

The biggest problems we are facing right now have to do with George Bush trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all and that’s what I intend to reverse.

~ Senator Barack H. Obama
Botnst is offline  
post #37 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 09:28 AM
BenzWorld Elite
 
A264172's Avatar
 
Date registered: Mar 2005
Vehicle: 1967 Irish/ Pole
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
It's ok. This very AM I didn't stop completely at one of those commie (you can tell cause they're red) stop signs, and I did 45mph in left wing liberal 40mph zone. Screw the man baby! Next summer I'm planning on a trip to Jellystone national park, where I plan on living my dream, 'roasting wienies on a hundred acre forest fire'. It's my life man so but out.

-Marty


"...pour out of one vessel into another; and as those old Romans robbed all the cities in the world, we skim the cream of other men's wits, pick the choice flowers of their tilled gardens to set our own sterile plots."
-a Richard Burton
A264172 is offline  
post #38 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadBenz94 View Post
McBear it sucks.

If I want to drive a car that gets 2mpg thats my choice. If I want a large safe vehicle to haul my family, again thats my choice. The price of gas and ones abilty to pay for such should dictate the marketplace, not the government.

Oh yeah no one is arguing my point about the stupidness of mandated ethanol production and useage. Any takers??

By TOM KRISHER, AP Auto Writer Thu Dec 20, 2:39 AM ET

DETROIT - When General Motors Corp. pulls the cover off a new supercharged version of the Corvette at the Detroit auto show next month, it will unveil a performance car designed to rival or better even the fastest, most expensive exotic cars from Europe.

But the Corvette's chief engineer says the 2009 Corvette ZR1 may be the last in a long tradition of Detroit performance cars, endangered by stronger federal fuel economy regulations and limits on carbon dioxide emissions.
"High-performance vehicles such as this may actually be legislated out of existence," Tadge Juechter said at a recent showing of the ZR1, which is designed to have around 620 horsepower.
No one is now, nor will they be saying you can't drive a car that gets 2mpg or drive a big SUV that you perceive is safer for your family. The new ruling just says the AVERAGE of the Fleet has to be X-MPG. What it will mean is that the Big ol SUV will most likely, by 2020 have a hybrid system like BlueTec/Electric that will get better gas mileage and have better torque. It will also be made of lighter materials, more composites and still be safer than today's land barges.

As for the 2MPG option, good luck with that, I don't think a NASCAR CoT is allowed on the street.

About the Corvette and it being the "last of the breed" with the new CAFE standards, FIRST, GM has been talking about the demise of the 'vette since 1974 when emission controls first dropped it to 165HP. Later when CAFE was introduced, again the 'vette was on the block only to have its best selling models in front of it. It is a niche, halo car, representing such an insignificant percentage of the GM fleet that it can keep its current mileage and not negatively affect the CAFE goals.

Now about ethanol. it is a bridge product. It, along with other technologies like BMW's Hydrogen car are rolling testbeds to determine viability and to look at long term issues. Just as back in 1907 when diesel and gas cars were both on the road to see which would be the most practical and efficient and marketable.

I am for as many options and variables that push technology as possible. Only good will come from the push.

Just looking at the current technology [simple 350 small block]. My 1965 Corvette 327 got 9 MPG city and 12 highway with a 3.07 rear end [the highway diff]. Today that same GM internal combustion motor 350 [LT1] generates near 400HP, and gets 19 city/28 Hway. The 6 speed gets 32 Hway. Much of that is thanks to engineers pushing the envelop to meet CAFE and gas guzzler standards.

Now with Natural Gas, Ethanol, BlueTec Diesel, Hydrogen, Electric, and other technologies, I see the 2020 numbers as both relatively easy to attain and slipstreamed into the product lines so folks will be able to either buy a VHE vehicle or a large capacity SUV and still be green.

I don't think you will be able to get your 2mpg car though, sorry.

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.
mcbear is offline  
post #39 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 01:48 PM
Surely A Large Human
 
Qubes's Avatar
 
Date registered: Jun 2006
Vehicle: '08 C219
Location: Between Earth and Mars
Posts: 34,252
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Quoted: 493 Post(s)
Lifetime Premium Member
I'm wondering what the fuel economy of the 2009 ZR1 'vette will be. 620 hp has to come from somewhere...

Seriously, it's a 6.0 liter motor, with a supercharger. Easy. I get roughly 350 hp out of a supercharged 3.2 liter V6. It's no big secret that IC engines are like lungs; more air = more power.
Qubes is offline  
post #40 of 66 (permalink) Old 12-21-2007, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
BenzWorld Elite
 
mcbear's Avatar
 
Date registered: Apr 2004
Vehicle: E500Es
Location: The BlueGrass State
Posts: 29,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
(Thread Starter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zedd View Post
Unless somebody pulls a miracle solution out of their ass that can violate the laws of physics and increase thermal efficiency to about 200%, there is no possible way to meet those goals in America. Americans want a V6/V8 powered sedan or V8 powered Pickup/SUV that can do 0-60 in 6 seconds, not a 660cc Kei car.
So let's see, my 1993 Mercedes 500E is 5Liters and 320HP [the S500 is 5L and 302HP] and efficiency has been improved by about 30% just in that 7 year period.

BUT, I can drop a 3L twin turbocharged Nissan or Toyota motor in the other 500E that gets the same 320HP on minimal boost and gets 70% increase in motor efficiency from the stock 500E powerplant. Or I can have real fun and bump up the turbos and boost and have 650bhp from a V6, something MB or Chevrolet have not touched. It is how you think about the problem.

So do you think that maybe the flow of logic here might be that instead of the big honking V8 [my favorite] we move to a V6/turbos for the same power with 50-75% better fuel efficiency? Or Turbo/supercharged I4s for V6 level performance?

McBear,
Kentucky

Being smart is knowing the difference, in a sticky situation between a well delivered anecdote and a well delivered antidote - bear.

Last edited by mcbear; 12-21-2007 at 01:59 PM.
mcbear is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Mercedes-Benz Forums > Off-Topic

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Mercedes-Benz Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











  • Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
     
    Thread Tools
    Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
    Email this Page Email this Page
    Display Modes
    Linear Mode Linear Mode



    Similar Threads
    Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
    Shariah ( Islamic ) law vs Talmud ( Jewish ) law Designo_E320 Off-Topic 37 06-15-2007 12:03 PM
    Nice cafe in Berlin KMP W123 E,CE,D,CD,TD,TE Class 1 09-02-2006 12:37 AM
    Just signed for a brand new .. . emcstd C219 CLS-Class 20 05-29-2006 03:48 PM
    Signed the contract! itsme W164 M-Class 8 08-01-2005 05:20 AM
    so who signed my engine? adrose R170 SLK-Class 3 08-25-2003 12:28 PM

    Posting Rules  
    You may post new threads
    You may post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is On
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are On
    Pingbacks are On
    Refbacks are On

     

    Title goes here

    close
    video goes here
    description goes here. Read Full Story
    For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome